Mage stats query, Newbie

[Howard]

I'd like to know which of these High Elf mages to play:

Str 10 Str 10
INT 18/50 Int 18/50
Dex 17 Dex 17
Con 10 Con 13
Wis 13 Wis 10
Charisma 18/10 Charisma 18/10

I'm not sure whether Con or Wis is more important after my primary stats.
(These are what I saved as rolls)

Thanks
Howard

[Neodymium]

In 2101, war was beginning and we got signal. In

Post by Howard
Str 10 Str 10
INT 18/50 Int 18/50
Dex 17 Dex 17
Con 10 Con 13
Wis 13 Wis 10
Charisma 18/10 Charisma 18/10
I'm not sure whether Con or Wis is more important after my primary stats.
(These are what I saved as rolls)

Con. And try for 18, or at least 16. I'd go for 18/50 int, as much con as
possible, then put the rest into str myself.

[Howard]

"Con. And try for 18, or at least 16. I'd go for 18/50 int, as much con as
possible, then put the rest into str myself."

Thanks for the reply. I had thought that DEX was my second most impt.
stat. Is this not true?

When you say 'put the rest into STR', I'm puzzled. Is there a way to adjust
stats? I've been 'rolling'
stats.

Also, one other query: should I make any changes in the OPTIONs menus? I
notice some interesting options
that are OFF by default such as monsters learning from their mistakes and
intelligent monsters etc. What do you
all advise?

Appreciate your help once again!

Howard

[David Vestal]

Post by Howard
"Con. And try for 18, or at least 16. I'd go for 18/50 int, as much con as
possible, then put the rest into str myself."
Thanks for the reply. I had thought that DEX was my second most impt.
stat. Is this not true?

This is not true, though I believe that that's been in a very old spoiler
file since at least the mid-90s. For a mage, I'd say the stats' order of
importance goes something like this:

CON
INT
STR
DEX/WIS
CHR

Post by Howard
When you say 'put the rest into STR', I'm puzzled. Is there a way to
adjust stats? I've been 'rolling'
stats.

Under "birth options," you can get your initial stats using points-based
allocation instead of rolling.

Post by Howard
Also, one other query: should I make any changes in the OPTIONs menus? I
notice some interesting options
that are OFF by default such as monsters learning from their mistakes
and intelligent monsters etc. What do you
all advise?

I advise that you use most, if not all, of the defaults. You'll die
enough without making the monsters smarter, trust me.

[Neodymium]

In 2101, war was beginning and we got signal. In
rec.games.roguelike.angband, David Vestal

Post by David Vestal

Post by Howard
"Con. And try for 18, or at least 16. I'd go for 18/50 int, as much con as
possible, then put the rest into str myself."
Thanks for the reply. I had thought that DEX was my second most impt.
stat. Is this not true?

This is not true, though I believe that that's been in a very old spoiler
file since at least the mid-90s. For a mage, I'd say the stats' order of
CON
INT

You'd rate con *higher* than int? Hitpoints don't help you when you're
defensless due to running out of mana. INT, CON, STR, DEX, WIS, CHR in
that order. Dex helps AC and mages need AC to deal with heavy hitters.
They often can't get by with significant armor weight, nevermind lower hit
points than say a warrior. If you can't be a tank, have good evasive
maneuvers I always say. Wis next because of saving throw. Status ailments
suck, and doubly so if you're a mage. Chr just speeds up game slightly by
giving you access to some stuff in the stores a bit sooner, in effect.
Stat potions in the BM as a case in point; you'll be able to buy your
first sooner and buy them more often with high Chr, and since this
includes Chr potions the benefit is compounded. Still it's the least
significant stat in V for any class.

[David Vestal]

Post by Neodymium
In 2101, war was beginning and we got signal. In
rec.games.roguelike.angband, David Vestal

Post by David Vestal

Post by Howard
"Con. And try for 18, or at least 16. I'd go for 18/50 int, as much con as
possible, then put the rest into str myself."
Thanks for the reply. I had thought that DEX was my second most impt.
stat. Is this not true?

This is not true, though I believe that that's been in a very old

spoiler

Post by David Vestal
file since at least the mid-90s. For a mage, I'd say the stats'
order

of

Post by David Vestal
CON
INT

You'd rate con *higher* than int? Hitpoints don't help you when you're
defensless due to running out of mana.

Yes, I would. When your hitpoints are measured by tens, an extra three
might very well be the difference between life and death. If an extra
ten SP are ever the difference between life and death, then you're
playing your mage badly. That's why my mages carry scrolls of phase door
and staves of teleport at low levels, even after they get the spell.
Until about stat-gain, I play mages as weak rangers, using SP only for
magic missiles and utility spells.

Post by Neodymium
INT, CON, STR, DEX, WIS, CHR in
that order. Dex helps AC and mages need AC to deal with heavy hitters.
They often can't get by with significant armor weight, nevermind lower
hit points than say a warrior. If you can't be a tank, have good
evasive maneuvers I always say. Wis next because of saving throw.
Status ailments suck, and doubly so if you're a mage.

That's why I'm tempted to rank WIS above DEX. DEX really isn't that big
a help.

Post by Neodymium
Chr just speeds
up game slightly by giving you access to some stuff in the stores a
bit sooner, in effect. Stat potions in the BM as a case in point;
you'll be able to buy your first sooner and buy them more often with
high Chr, and since this includes Chr potions the benefit is
compounded. Still it's the least significant stat in V for any class.

[Ceilti OCahill]

Neodymium <***@127.0.0.1> wrote in news:***@66.185.95.104:
and <A

That's why I'm tempted to rank WIS above DEX. DEX >really isn't that big a

help..

I disagree with this, at least for non-priest spellcasters. WIS is second
lowest on my list only above CHR. DEX offers more benifits in my opinion.

My impression is that it helps in melee, and a high DEX definitely helps keeps
thieves from your items which is an important consideration I'm sure there are
more benifits, but I can't think of them right now.

Ceilti


The only truth is the stars in the heavens, and all that lies beneath is
interpretation.

[Neodymium]

In 2101, war was beginning and we got signal. In

Post by David Vestal

Post by Neodymium
INT, CON, STR, DEX, WIS, CHR in
that order. Dex helps AC and mages need AC to deal with heavy hitters.
They often can't get by with significant armor weight, nevermind lower
hit points than say a warrior. If you can't be a tank, have good
evasive maneuvers I always say. Wis next because of saving throw.
Status ailments suck, and doubly so if you're a mage.

That's why I'm tempted to rank WIS above DEX. DEX really isn't that big
a help.

Probably your mages phase a lot. AC still becomes an issue with heavy
hitters that move fast, though, such as Azog.

[Kieron Dunbar]

Post by Neodymium

Post by David Vestal
That's why I'm tempted to rank WIS above DEX. DEX really isn't that big
a help.

Probably your mages phase a lot. AC still becomes an issue with heavy
hitters that move fast, though, such as Azog.

That's true, but AC being important doesn't magically make dexterity important.
For a high elf, increasing your dexterity from 14 to 18/40 increases your AC
by 2 points. This decreases your chance of being hit by Azog by anything up
to 1.4% and the damage he causes by up to 0.8%.

Dexterity matters more than wisdom at the start of the game because the bonus
against thieves can be is large enough to be noticed even at level 1, but it
never provides enough AC for this to be an issue for monsters which attack to
hurt like Azog.

Incidentally, I only just noticed that the theft chance formula is
(rand_int(100) < adj_dex_safe[] + p_ptr->lev). This means that you only need
18/150 for perfect protection for levels 1-9, after which point the requirement
drops by 10 points for every 10 levels until it reaches 18/100 at level 50.
18/150 is still the highest dexterity which can give extra blows, but it's not
as important as I thought it was.

[David J. Grabiner]

Post by David Vestal

Post by Howard
"Con. And try for 18, or at least 16. I'd go for 18/50 int, as much con as
possible, then put the rest into str myself."
Thanks for the reply. I had thought that DEX was my second most impt.
stat. Is this not true?

This is not true, though I believe that that's been in a very old spoiler
file since at least the mid-90s. For a mage, I'd say the stats' order of
CON
INT
STR
DEX/WIS
CHR

CON doesn't make any difference as long as it is between 7 and 16, and
most mage races can't get over 16. A hobbit mage can, and should, get a
17 constitution, since hobbits have even fewer hit points than other
races. A dwarf, dunadan, or kobold can also get 17, and a half-troll
can get 18. A decent CON is useful because it speeds up stat gain; if
you start with a 7 CON, you will need a lot of potions to get the extra
hit points you need to go deeper.

INT must be 18 for extra mana. 18/50 is much better (2 mana and 1.5
spells per level), but only available for high-elf mages. Intermediate
points help primarily because you might find a magic item to get to
18/50 quickly; you also reduce your minimum failure chance from 6% to 5%
at 18/20.

I consider a STR of 10 to be the mimimum for a mage; with any less,
you'll spend most of your time slowed by your inventory.

[David J. Grabiner]

Post by David J. Grabiner

Post by David Vestal
CON
INT
STR
DEX/WIS
CHR

CON doesn't make any difference as long as it is between 7 and 16, and
most mage races can't get over 16. A hobbit mage can, and should, get a
17 constitution, since hobbits have even fewer hit points than other
races. A dwarf, dunadan, or kobold can also get 17, and a half-troll
can get 18. A decent CON is useful because it speeds up stat gain; if
you start with a 7 CON, you will need a lot of potions to get the extra
hit points you need to go deeper.

I rechecked; 15 CON is enough to get a bonus of 0.5 HP per level, and
every mage except a half-elf or elf can get that. 17 CON gives 1 HP per
level, 18 gives 1.5.

Still, I wouldn't insist on a 15 CON when INT and STR are more
important. A high-elf mage will gain much more from an 18/50 INT (max)
and 10 STR (two points off max) than a 15 CON (one point off max). A
hobbit mage gets 29% more hit points with a 17 CON than with a 7-14 CON,
so he should go for it.

[Neodymium]

In 2101, war was beginning and we got signal. In

Post by Howard
"Con. And try for 18, or at least 16. I'd go for 18/50 int, as much con as
possible, then put the rest into str myself."
Thanks for the reply. I had thought that DEX was my second most impt.
stat. Is this not true?

Curiously not. Mages need magic power -- and only int affects that. They
have trouble with hit points, and depend a huge amount on avoiding
confusion, stunning, and blindness which impair magic use. Con boosts hit
points and makes these "status ailments" last a shorter time. Mages lastly
tend to have trouble with carrying stacks of spellbooks down and piles of
loot up due to poor intrinsic strength. Boosting str can help avoid
picking up that Short Sword of Burning (+6,+10) you want to sell for mucho
profit (or maybe even use) and quickly ending up Slow (-3) and jackalbait.

Post by Howard
When you say 'put the rest into STR', I'm puzzled. Is there a way to adjust
stats? I've been 'rolling'
stats.

Autoroller lets you specify minimums. I recommend point-based.

Post by Howard
Also, one other query: should I make any changes in the OPTIONs menus? I
notice some interesting options
that are OFF by default such as monsters learning from their mistakes and
intelligent monsters etc. What do you
all advise?

For a beginner leave the monster ai options off!

[Howard]

"Boosting str can help avoid picking up that Short Sword of Burning (+6,+10)
you want to sell for mucho
profit (or maybe even use) and quickly ending up Slow (-3) and jackalbait."


Good point. Is there any way to tell when I am burdened other than the
SLOW messages?
Usually, in RPGs, you can see somewhere what your maximim carrying capacity
is.

About the stats, I rolled another High Elf mage with Str-13, Int. 18/50,
Wis. 11, Dex. 15, Con 16, Chr 15.
That is my 'keeper' guy.

Thanks
Howard

[Neodymium]

In 2101, war was beginning and we got signal. In

Post by Howard
"Boosting str can help avoid picking up that Short Sword of Burning
(+6,+10) you want to sell for mucho
profit (or maybe even use) and quickly ending up Slow (-3) and
jackalbait."
Good point. Is there any way to tell when I am burdened other than the
SLOW messages?
Usually, in RPGs, you can see somewhere what your maximim carrying
capacity is.

V has a "burden" thing on the C screen, but it's difficult to interpret.
It might just be the total amount you're currently carrying, actually.

O had a nice inventory screen feature, once you figure out how to
interpret it. It will show "nn% of capacity" on the inventory screen, near
the top. The tricky thing is interpreting the percentages. At 50% you can
no longer cross water (there are water squares in O). At 60% you become
Slow (-1). At 70% Slow (-2), and it may accelerate at that point since I
think you can be up to slow (-10) from loot, which presumably occurs at
100%.

A similar indicator in V might be useful. RR's the one to import it from
O, or not, as he chooses though.

[Howard]

"Con. And try for 18, or at least 16. I'd go for 18/50 int, as much con as
possible, then put the rest into str myself."

Well, unless I'm doing something wrong, using the point method with a
High-Elf I can only get 18/50, Con of 16 and a STR of 9.

I guess I have to use the auto-roller to see what I can get there.

Howard

[Eddie Grove]

Post by Howard
"Con. And try for 18, or at least 16. I'd go for 18/50 int, as much con as
possible, then put the rest into str myself."
Well, unless I'm doing something wrong, using the point method with a
High-Elf I can only get 18/50, Con of 16 and a STR of 9.

The important CON breakpoints are 15, 18, 18/10, 18/50. There is no
way you should sacrifice strength to get from 15 to 16, unless you are
planning already for the middle game and even then it is not clear.


Eddie

[Neodymium]

In 2101, war was beginning and we got signal. In

Post by Howard
"Con. And try for 18, or at least 16. I'd go for 18/50 int, as much con as
possible, then put the rest into str myself."
Well, unless I'm doing something wrong, using the point method with a
High-Elf I can only get 18/50, Con of 16 and a STR of 9.

That's adequate, though some would recommend con of 18 and lower int.

[David J. Grabiner]

Post by Howard
Str 10 Str 10
INT 18/50 Int 18/50
Dex 17 Dex 17
Con 10 Con 13
Wis 13 Wis 10
Charisma 18/10 Charisma 18/10
I'm not sure whether Con or Wis is more important after my primary stats.
(These are what I saved as rolls)

The right-hand one is better. There is no difference until you find
some rings or potions in mid-game to increase your stats, but when you
start increasing your stats, the one with higher CON will get extra hit
points faster. WIS only helps a mage's saving throw, and by the time it
matters more than just an improvement from 66% to 67%, you'll have maxed
out the stats. (A high-elf mage with 18/70 WIS has a perfect saving
throw.)