Advice

[d***@gmail.com]

Oh mighty gurus of the pits! Powerful sages of the deep! I humbly
beseech your wisdom!

I have just encountered the shield of Thorin - does it strike anyone
else as funny that the shield of Thorin Oakenshield should be a small
metal? - and swapped it in for Celegorm which I have used for a long
while. In so doing, I have lost res elec and cold, but gained imm acid
and res chaos and sound (both of which were previously missing). Res
elec doesn't concern me a ton because I have Taratol as my weapon swap,
though I will probably regret it more the next time that I get
teleported to and gang-banged by a room of Storm Giants. The cold bugs
me a lot though, mainly as I don't see an easy way to get it. I can
wield Avavir, but I am quite fond of the axe of Hurin...The easiest
solution would be to lose my cloak Holcolleth, and its +2 speed, in
favor of the next cloak of resistance I encounter...may the RNG be so
kind...Alternatively, I can swap out my armor, but Caspanion is the
only res confusion I have right now and losing that scares me a *lot*
more than losing res cold does...

Any suggestions, o wise ones?

Also, I am wondering if I can safely sell Evenstar now that I have the
Arkenstone of Thrain for res life drain. Any other tips or suggestions
on what to look out for? A thousand thanks in advance!!!!!!

P.S. This is the first time I've everplayed with Auto-scum on...the
equipment has been mind-blowing!
-----
[Angband 3.0.6 Character Dump]

Name Drag XXXIv Self RB CB EB
Best
Sex Male Age 84 Str! 18/100 -1 +5 +7
18/210 18/180
Race Gnome Height 35 INT! 18/100 +2 -2 +8
18/180
Class Warrior Weight 94 WIS! 18/100 +0 -2 +8
18/160
Title Lord Status 44 DEX! 18/100 +2 +2 +7
18/210
HP 1157/1157 Maximize Y CON! 18/100 +1 +2 +10
18/230
SP 0/0 Preserve Y CHR! 18/100 -2 -1 +1
18/80

Level 50 Armor [30,+102] Saving Throw
Heroic
Cur Exp 5750844 Fight (+44,+27) Stealth
Superb
Max Exp 5750844 Melee (+56,+42) Fighting
Legendary
Adv Exp ******** Shoot (+54,+14) Shooting
Legendary
MaxDepth Lev 63 Blows 6/turn Disarming
Heroic
Gold 1112055 Shots 1/turn Magic Device
Superb
Burden 186.3 lbs Perception
Fair
Speed +16 Infra 60 ft Searching
Good

You are one of several children of a Gnome Mage. You are the black
sheep of the family. You have brown eyes, straight black hair, and an
average complexion.


abcdefghijkl@ abcdefghijkl@
Acid:+.....++*.+.. Blind:.........+...
Elec:............. Confu:......+......
Fire:++........... Sound:........+....
Cold:............. Shard:.............
Pois:..+.+.+...... Nexus:....+........
Fear:........+...+ Nethr:.............
Lite:.....+....... Chaos:........+....
Dark:+.+..+....... Disen:.............

abcdefghijkl@ abcdefghijkl@
S.Dig:............. Stea.:..+.+..+.....
Feath:............. Sear.:....+........
PLite:+............ Infra:....+........
Regen:............. Tunn.:.............
Telep:.........+... Speed:.+..+..+...+.
Invis:.....+....... Blows:.............
FrAct:........+.+.+ Shots:.............
HLife:.....+....... Might:.............


[Character Equipment]

a) The Beaked Axe of Hurin (3d6) (+12,+15) (+2) {@w0}
It increases your strength and constitution by 2. It slays trolls
and
dragons, and is especially deadly against demons. It is branded
with
acid. It provides resistance to acid, fire, and dark. It lights
the
dungeon around you. It activates for berserk rage (50+d50 turns)
every
80+d80 turns. It cannot be harmed by the elements.
b) The Light Crossbow 'Cubragol' (x3) (+10,+14) (+10) {ground l57}
It increases your speed by 10. It provides resistance to fire. It
activates for fire branding of bolts every 999 turns. It cannot be
harmed by the elements.
c) The Ring of Barahir (+1) {troll pit l61}
It increases all your stats by 1. It increases your stealth by 1.
It
provides resistance to poison and dark. It cannot be harmed by the
elements.
d) an Obsidian Ring of Slaying (+9,+4)
e) a Crystal Amulet of Trickery (+2)
It increases your dexterity by 2. It increases your stealth,
searching,
infravision, and speed by 2. It provides resistance to poison and
nexus. It sustains your dexterity.
f) The Arkenstone of Thrain
It provides resistance to light, dark, and life draining. It lights
the dungeon around you. It grants you the ability to see invisible
things. It activates for detection every 30+d30 turns. It cannot
be
harmed by the elements.
g) The Augmented Chain Mail of Caspanion (-2) [16,+18] (+3)
It increases your intelligence, wisdom, and constitution by 3. It
provides resistance to acid, poison, and confusion. It activates
for
door and trap destruction every 10 turns. It cannot be harmed by
the
elements.
h) The Cloak 'Holcolleth' [1,+7] (+2)
It increases your intelligence and wisdom by 2. It increases your
stealth and speed by 2. It provides resistance to acid. It
activates
for sleep II every 55 turns. It cannot be harmed by the elements.
i) The Small Metal Shield of Thorin [3,+25] (+4)
It increases your strength and constitution by 4. It provides
immunity
to acid. It provides resistance to fear, sound, and chaos. It
grants
you immunity to paralysis. It cannot be harmed by the elements.
j) The Hard Leather Cap of Thranduil [2,+9] (+2)
It increases your intelligence and wisdom by 2. It provides
resistance
to blindness. It grants you the power of telepathy. It cannot be
harmed by the elements.
k) The Set of Cesti of Fingolfin (+9,+9) [5,+19] (+4)
It increases your dexterity by 4. It provides resistance to acid.
It
grants you immunity to paralysis. It activates for a magical arrow
(150) every 30+d30 turns. It cannot be harmed by the elements.
l) a Pair of Hard Leather Boots of Speed [3,+9] (+3)
It increases your speed by 3.


[Character Inventory]

a) 7 Vermilion Potions of Heroism
b) 21 Tangerine Potions of Cure Critical Wounds
c) 3 Grey Potions of Restore Life Levels {50% off}
d) 5 Scrolls titled "uniprok ab" of Teleportation
e) 25 Scrolls titled "wex kli cremic" of Identify {10% off}
f) 14 Scrolls titled "garfri eremi x" of Protection from Evil
g) 2 Nickel Rods of Perception {@z3}
It cannot be harmed by electricity.
h) 4 Zinc-Plated Rods of Recall {!*}
It cannot be harmed by electricity.
i) 3 Lead-Plated Rods of Illumination {@z4}
j) 4 Mithril Rods of Detection (1 charging) {@z1}
It cannot be harmed by electricity.
k) a Chromium Rod of Healing {!d!v}
It cannot be harmed by electricity.
l) a Nickel-Plated Rod of Speed {@z2!d}
It cannot be harmed by electricity.
m) 6 Zirconium Rods of Teleport Other
n) The Large Leather Shield of Celegorm [4,+19]
It provides resistance to acid, lightning, fire, cold, light, and
dark.
It cannot be harmed by the elements.
o) The Mace 'Taratol' (3d4) (+12,+12) (charging) {@w1}
It is especially deadly against dragons. It is branded with
electricity. It provides immunity to lightning. It activates for
haste self (20+d20 turns) every 100+d100 turns. It cannot be harmed
by
the elements.
p) a Dwarven Shovel of Digging (1d3) (+8,+10) (+6)
It increases your tunneling by 6. It is branded with acid.
q) The Long Bow of Bard (x3) (+17,+19) (+2)
It increases your dexterity by 2. It increases your speed and
shooting
power by 2. It grants you immunity to paralysis. It cannot be
harmed
by the elements.
r) 14 Bolts of Slay Demon (1d5) (+16,+5)
It slays demons.


[Home Inventory]

a) 42 Metallic Blue Potions of Speed {10% off}
b) 39 Viscous Pink Potions of Healing
c) 7 Silver Speckled Potions of *Healing*
d) 9 Grey Potions of Restore Life Levels {25% off}
e) 24 Scrolls titled "uniprok ab" of Teleportation
f) 19 Scrolls titled "nision ere esh" of *Identify*
g) a Scroll titled "alabar cre" of *Remove Curse*
h) 7 Scrolls titled "ood doearg" of *Destruction*
i) an Alexandrite Ring of Resist Poison
It provides resistance to poison.
j) an Adamantite Ring of Dexterity (+5)
It increases your dexterity by 5. It sustains your dexterity.
k) an Amethyst Ring of Constitution (+4) {+4}
It increases your constitution by 4. It sustains your constitution.

l) an Ivory Amulet of ESP
m) The Jewel 'Evenstar'
It provides resistance to cold, dark, and life draining. It
sustains
your intelligence, wisdom, and constitution. It activates for
restore
life levels every 150 turns. It cannot be harmed by the elements.
n) The Chain Mail of Arvedui (-2) [14,+15] (+2)
It increases your strength and charisma by 2. It provides
resistance
to acid, lightning, fire, cold, shards, and nexus. It cannot be
harmed
by the elements.
o) The Mithril Chain Mail 'Belegennon' (-1) [28,+20] (+4)
It increases your stealth by 4. It provides resistance to acid,
lightning, fire, cold, and poison. It activates for phase door
every 2
turns. It cannot be harmed by the elements.
p) The Hard Leather Armour of Himring [6,+15]
It provides resistance to poison, nether, and chaos. It activates
for
protection from evil every 100+d100 turns. It cannot be harmed by
the
elements.
q) The Leather Scale Mail 'Thalkettoth' (-1) [11,+25] (+3)
It increases your dexterity by 3. It increases your speed by 3. It
provides resistance to acid and shards. It cannot be harmed by the
elements.
r) The Dagger 'Angrist' (2d4) (+10,+15) [+5] (+4) {@w2 Saruman, l57}
It increases your dexterity by 4. It increases your speed by 4. It
slays orcs, trolls, and all evil creatures. It is branded with
acid.
It provides resistance to acid and dark. It sustains your
dexterity.
It grants you immunity to paralysis. It cannot be harmed by the
elements.
s) The Beaked Axe of Theoden (2d6) (+8,+10) (+3) {@w0}
It increases your wisdom and constitution by 3. It slays dragons.
It
slows your metabolism. It grants you the power of telepathy. It
activates for drain life (120) every 40 turns. It cannot be harmed
by
the elements.
t) The Broad Axe 'Barukkheled' (2d6) (+13,+19) (+3)
It increases your constitution by 3. It slays orcs, trolls, giants,

and all evil creatures. It grants you the ability to see invisible
things. It cannot be harmed by the elements.
u) The Glaive of Pain (9d6) (+0,+30)
It provides resistance to fear. It cannot be harmed by the
elements.
v) The Scythe 'Avavir' (5d3) (+8,+8) [+10] (+3)
It increases your dexterity and charisma by 3. It is branded with
fire
and frost. It provides resistance to fire, cold, and light. It
lights
the dungeon around you. It grants you immunity to paralysis and the
ability to see invisible things. It activates for word of recall
every
200 turns. It cannot be harmed by the elements.
w) The Long Bow 'Belthronding' (x3) (+20,+22) (+1)
It increases your dexterity by 1. It increases your stealth, speed,

and shooting speed by 1. It provides resistance to disenchantment.
It
cannot be harmed by the elements.
x) 21 Arrows of Slay Evil (1d4) (+9,+11)
It slays all evil creatures.


[Options]

Adult: Allow purchase of stats using points : yes (adult_point_based)
Adult: Allow specification of minimal stats : no (adult_auto_roller)
Adult: Maximize effect of race/class bonuses : yes (adult_maximize)
Adult: Preserve artifacts when leaving level : yes (adult_preserve)
Adult: Restrict the use of stairs/recall : no (adult_ironman)
Adult: Restrict the use of stores/home : no (adult_no_stores)
Adult: Restrict creation of artifacts : no (adult_no_artifacts)
Adult: Randomize some of the artifacts (beta): no
(adult_rand_artifacts)
Adult: Don't stack objects on the floor : no (adult_no_stacking)
Score: Peek into object creation : no (score_peek)
Score: Peek into monster creation : no (score_hear)
Score: Peek into dungeon creation : no (score_room)
Score: Peek into something else : no (score_xtra)
Score: Know complete monster info : no (score_know)
Score: Allow player to avoid death : no (score_live)

[Eddie Grove]

Post by d***@gmail.com
while. In so doing, I have lost res elec and cold, but gained imm acid

You simply cannot afford to lose those. There are unresisted breaths
over 1200, and that would be instant death.

Post by d***@gmail.com
and res chaos and sound (both of which were previously missing). Res
elec doesn't concern me a ton because I have Taratol as my weapon swap,

You cannot afford to use swaps for basic resistances in the depths.

Post by d***@gmail.com
kind...Alternatively, I can swap out my armor, but Caspanion is the
only res confusion I have right now and losing that scares me a *lot*
more than losing res cold does...

You cannot afford to lose rConf either. If you play NPP next time
you could give up rConf since Thorin's rChaos eliminates the confusion
side effect.

Post by d***@gmail.com
Also, I am wondering if I can safely sell Evenstar now that I have the
Arkenstone of Thrain for res life drain. Any other tips or suggestions

BZZZZT! Life drain is irrelevant, but see below.

Post by d***@gmail.com
c) The Ring of Barahir (+1) {troll pit l61}
It increases all your stats by 1. It increases your stealth by 1.
It
provides resistance to poison and dark. It cannot be harmed by the
elements.
d) an Obsidian Ring of Slaying (+9,+4)

Neither of those is particularly useful. A simple solution to your
problem would be rings of rCold and Lightning.

Post by d***@gmail.com
e) a Crystal Amulet of Trickery (+2)

Nice, but not necessary when wearing Caspanion. If you had a ring
of Lightning, it would be right to swap in Evenstar!

An amulet of resistance would solve your problems, as would another
artifact amulet.

Post by d***@gmail.com
i) The Small Metal Shield of Thorin [3,+25] (+4)

Sorry -- for now go back to Celegorm. The only alternative is to
use Evenstar and Taratol, and promise never ever to swap out Taratol.


Eddie

[Cliff Stamp]

Post by Eddie Grove

Post by d***@gmail.com
while. In so doing, I have lost res elec and cold, but gained imm acid

You simply cannot afford to lose those. There are unresisted breaths
over 1200, and that would be instant death.

I have ran lots of characters at depths where resist holes allowed insta
kills. You just don't fight those guys. The biggest chance of death is
teleport and then get smashed. You can get both in potion form as well.

In some variants you can never get enough protection outside of temp spells,
like some low hp sorcerers in heng. Unless you have prepared you will be
dead, you just never get the hp's to absorb a breath even with resistance to
it.

That being said, I don't think I would make the swap in this case because
more things would be able to kill you than you would be able to fight
better.

This would be an interesting competition actually, win the game while having
at all time one base R hole.

--
Cliff Stamp
***@physics.mun.ca http://www.physics.mun.ca:80/~sstamp/

The one unforgivable sin, the offence against one's own integrity,
is to accept anything at all simply on authority -- Maureen Johnson Long

Anyone can hold the helm when the sea is calm. -- Publilius Syrus

[topazg]

Post by Cliff Stamp

Post by Eddie Grove

Post by d***@gmail.com
while. In so doing, I have lost res elec and cold, but gained imm acid

You simply cannot afford to lose those. There are unresisted breaths
over 1200, and that would be instant death.

This would be an interesting competition actually, win the game while having
at all time one base R hole.
--
Cliff Stamp

Yeah, I'd agree here, that would make things interesting. I've had similar
experiences on Posband with Liches and Skeletons. I lost a very promising
skeleton to a single breath instadeath from the Balrog of Moria, because the
resist fire I had was countered by natural fire vulnerability of skeletons.
Makes for a v. interesting game!

[Eddie Grove]

Post by Cliff Stamp

Post by Eddie Grove

Post by d***@gmail.com
while. In so doing, I have lost res elec and cold, but gained imm acid

You simply cannot afford to lose those. There are unresisted breaths
over 1200, and that would be instant death.

I have ran lots of characters at depths where resist holes allowed insta
kills. You just don't fight those guys. The biggest chance of death is
teleport and then get smashed. You can get both in potion form as well.

I know that I have suddenly noticed I forgot to swap back at least a
dozen times. I assume it happens to everybody now and then. If you
get a resistance from a swap, you should allow for the possibility you
will forget and be without.

Post by Cliff Stamp
This would be an interesting competition actually, win the game while having
at all time one base R hole.

Then perhaps you should try Timo's current challenge -- an egoless
winner.

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.games.roguelike.angband/browse_thread/thread/88fa7c3587f7cb9f/4246695b587a2140?lnk=st&q=ego_item.txt+group:*.*.*.angband+author:timo&rnum=2&hl=en#4246695b587a2140


Eddie

[Cliff Stamp]

Post by Eddie Grove
I know that I have suddenly noticed I forgot to swap back at least a
dozen times.

Diggers as your main weapon got me more than once.

Post by Eddie Grove
Then perhaps you should try Timo's current challenge -- an egoless
winner.
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.games.roguelike.angband/browse_thread/thread/88fa7c3587f7cb9f/4246695b587a2140?lnk=st&q=ego_item.txt+group:*.*.*.angband+author:timo&rnum=2&hl=en#4246695b587a2140

With DSM's there is no need for signifiant resistance holes.

Balance / Multi-Hued : body / shield combination, or just power of course.

Then you also have rings but late game you would need speed as you can only
get it there aside from the minor amulet boost.

I don't even recall what normal items give powers, amulets can give
light/dark resistance, and disenchantment, you can also get chaos from the
blade, you can get dark and poison from race.

What is the ideal setup :

Blade of Chaos/MoD
Balance DSM
MH Shield
+15 RoS
+15 RoS
Amulet of Trickery +4

Can you get 6 blows per round with a Half-Troll or will the dex kill you and
force a Dunadan? Your max offence is what 1/3 to 1/2 of optimal?

--
Cliff Stamp
***@physics.mun.ca http://www.physics.mun.ca:80/~sstamp/

The one unforgivable sin, the offence against one's own integrity,
is to accept anything at all simply on authority -- Maureen Johnson Long

Anyone can hold the helm when the sea is calm. -- Publilius Syrus

[Timo Pietilä]

Post by Cliff Stamp

Post by Eddie Grove
I know that I have suddenly noticed I forgot to swap back at least a
dozen times.

Diggers as your main weapon got me more than once.

Post by Eddie Grove
Then perhaps you should try Timo's current challenge -- an egoless
winner.
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.games.roguelike.angband/browse_thread/thread/88fa7c3587f7cb9f/4246695b587a2140?lnk=st&q=ego_item.txt+group:*.*.*.angband+author:timo&rnum=2&hl=en#4246695b587a2140

With DSM's there is no need for signifiant resistance holes.
Balance / Multi-Hued : body / shield combination, or just power of course.
Then you also have rings but late game you would need speed as you can only
get it there aside from the minor amulet boost.
Blade of Chaos/MoD
Balance DSM
MH Shield

This doesn't exist in vanilla.

Post by Cliff Stamp
+15 RoS
+15 RoS
Amulet of Trickery +4

No need for this much speed. Better to use +6 RoCon for other ring slot
(othervise your HP is too low).

Post by Cliff Stamp
Can you get 6 blows per round with a Half-Troll or will the dex kill you and
force a Dunadan? Your max offence is what 1/3 to 1/2 of optimal?

Better get Dwarf. rBlind helps a lot. Also spellcaster as a class for
offence/defence is needed.

My choise was/is Dwarf Priest. Maybe High-Elf Ranger or Mage could work too.

Timo Pietilä

[Cliff Stamp]

Post by Timo Pietilä

Post by Cliff Stamp
+15 RoS
+15 RoS
Amulet of Trickery +4

No need for this much speed. Better to use +6 RoCon for other ring slot
(othervise your HP is too low).

Without two rings of speed what are the odds Morgoth double moves you? Even
with RoS at +15 and +4 for AoT you are +29 with haste, vs +30 base for
Morgoth, don't you need a slight advantage to prevent double move? More
realistically you are looking at +23 to +25. Without the very long fight due
to low damage you are looking at a lot of rounds.

Post by Timo Pietilä

Post by Cliff Stamp
Can you get 6 blows per round with a Half-Troll or will the dex kill you
and force a Dunadan? Your max offence is what 1/3 to 1/2 of optimal?

Better get Dwarf. rBlind helps a lot. Also spellcaster as a class for
offence/defence is needed.

Without 0% fail you are fairly limited anyway because you can't depend on
heal/escape which really limits the use of the spells. I generally don't pay
attention to blind, just don't fight those guys. What are the hp's for CL50
half-troll warrior with maximize stats?

Post by Timo Pietilä
My choise was/is Dwarf Priest. Maybe High-Elf Ranger or Mage could work too.

With ranger you are looking at ~175 per round with seeker arrows, that is
probably the same as a MoD vs non-undead so no offense advantage

--
Cliff Stamp
***@physics.mun.ca http://www.physics.mun.ca:80/~sstamp/

The one unforgivable sin, the offence against one's own integrity,
is to accept anything at all simply on authority -- Maureen Johnson Long

Anyone can hold the helm when the sea is calm. -- Publilius Syrus

[Timo Pietilä]

Post by Cliff Stamp

Post by Timo Pietilä

Post by Cliff Stamp
+15 RoS
+15 RoS
Amulet of Trickery +4

No need for this much speed. Better to use +6 RoCon for other ring
slot (othervise your HP is too low).

Without two rings of speed what are the odds Morgoth double moves you?
Even
with RoS at +15 and +4 for AoT you are +29 with haste, vs +30 base for
Morgoth, don't you need a slight advantage to prevent double move? More
realistically you are looking at +23 to +25. Without the very long fight
due to low damage you are looking at a lot of rounds.

Problem is that _without_ that RoCON even single manastorm is too much
and you need to heal almost every round (Dwarf priest without CON-boost
has around 650 HP) That can be done with priest, but with other classes
it is not possible. Better to risk double move every now and then and
hope he doesn't use two manastorms in row.

With +12 RoS (realistic) and +4 Trickery (seen nearly all games) you are
at +16. Hasted that is +26.

In energy that is 36 vs Morgoths 38. 38/36=1.055. In other words Morgoth
gets double move every 94 moves if I calculate this right. That is not
too often if you can dish out enough damage to him.

Post by Cliff Stamp

Post by Timo Pietilä

Post by Cliff Stamp
Can you get 6 blows per round with a Half-Troll or will the dex kill you
and force a Dunadan? Your max offence is what 1/3 to 1/2 of optimal?

Better get Dwarf. rBlind helps a lot. Also spellcaster as a class for
offence/defence is needed.

Without 0% fail you are fairly limited anyway because you can't depend on
heal/escape which really limits the use of the spells.

1% failure with 18/150. That's tolerable. Much better than half-troll
warrior using wands/staves.

Post by Cliff Stamp
I generally don't
pay
attention to blind, just don't fight those guys.

What are you planning to do light/dark breathers? Hounds are way too common.

Post by Cliff Stamp
What are the hp's for CL50
half-troll warrior with maximize stats?

Around 900-910. But you are very limited because you don't get see_inv
or FA or high enough saving throw to ignore FA in high levels. High-Elf
warrior is around 820 HP. That's much better because you now have
see_inv but you still don't have FA or perfect saving. Perfect or near
perfect saving is pretty much necessary, othervise high speed doesn't
help against Morgoth because brain smash will slow you down. (13 + 13 +
4 + 10 = 40, just enough)

Post by Cliff Stamp

Post by Timo Pietilä
My choise was/is Dwarf Priest. Maybe High-Elf Ranger or Mage could work too.

With ranger you are looking at ~175 per round with seeker arrows, that is
probably the same as a MoD vs non-undead so no offense advantage

Hmmm... (4d4 +10 +10) *3 *3 = 180. Right. There is that advantage that
you don't need to melee and get spells to help you. But with that you
need that RoCON and don't have perfect saving or FA. IE. bad choise.

Timo Pietilä

[Timo Pietilä]

Post by Timo Pietilä
Hmmm... (4d4 +10 +10) *3 *3 = 180. Right.

OK. Where is my brains.... Found them. 90*3 isn't 180. 90*3 is 270.
(4d4+5+5)*3*3 gives 180.

Timo Pietilä

[d***@gmail.com]

Thanks, everybody, for all of the advice and tips! I stuck with the
same kit until I found Nerya on the ground in a minor vault! I thought
that I had a way to equip the shield when I found an amulet of the Magi
which gave rConf, swapped in Arvedui for rBase and to gain rShards, but
found myself missing rPoison...back to the drawing board... ;)

This is my first time to get over clvl50, so I hadn't seen just how xp
gets quickly pointless...

A comment was made that 18/150 is the highest dex that I will
require...How is that? Doesn't more dex increase to-hit, increase AC,
reduce steals, etc?

Thanks again, deeper I go!

[Timo Pietilä]

Post by d***@gmail.com
A comment was made that 18/150 is the highest dex that I will
require...How is that? Doesn't more dex increase to-hit, increase AC,
reduce steals, etc?

18/150 dex is theft-proof and you get max effect in blows. After that
benefits are very small. They exist but are small (AC and to_hit, as you
mentioned).

Timo Pietilä

[Cliff Stamp]

On Sat, 13 Aug 2005, [UTF-8] Timo PietilÀ wrote:

[player at +26]

Post by Timo Pietilä
In energy that is 36 vs Morgoths 38.

I hate game play aspects like that. How are you supposed to figure that out
from the monster descriptions. I knew it wasn't linear but never thought it
was that bad. Yeah based on those numbers additional RoS are of little
benefit, offence wise even +dam or slaying is way better as a good one
probably doubles your offence.

[on heal]

Post by Timo Pietilä
1% failure with 18/150. That's tolerable. Much better than half-troll warrior
using wands/staves.

Damn, I keep thinking of normal end game chars and miss the details. There
are always scrolls though.

Post by Timo Pietilä

Post by Cliff Stamp
I generally don't pay
attention to blind, just don't fight those guys.

What are you planning to do light/dark breathers? Hounds are way too common.

Ignore them if blind is going to kill you, the dogs are too weak to do it
alone. I don't fight them anyway as they are a waste of time, no drops.

Post by Timo Pietilä
Perfect or near perfect saving is pretty
much necessary, othervise high speed doesn't help against Morgoth because
brain smash will slow you down. (13 + 13 + 4 + 10 = 40, just enough)

Can't you get FA in a amulet? You can get SI in scrolls/potions so I would
not trade a lot for that.

Post by Timo Pietilä

Post by Cliff Stamp
With ranger you are looking at ~175 per round with seeker arrows, that is
probably the same as a MoD vs non-undead so no offense advantage

Hmmm... (4d4 +10 +10) *3 *3 = 180.

They get three shots now?

Warriors get +50% more melee than priests which would be huge here. I
played a priest when they were first nerfed to 4 blows, I just skipped the
angels as I could not damage them fast enough to overcome their healing.

Even with a MoD you are doing what like (5d8+15)*4=150 and giving that you
are not hitting every blow and healing often I don't think you can expect
more than 75 hp's per round.

I don't think that would be enough to overcome his ability to heal, but even
if it did you are looking at somewhere in the ballpart of 300 turns. I
didn't factor in criticals and +str damage, but I don't imagine that makes a
massive difference.

Unless I screwed up the numbers big time I think it would take forever to
get enough potions and scrolls to last that long in a fight with him
assuming it would overcome regen and his healing. Is there a monster mana
pool in vanilla?

--
Cliff Stamp
***@physics.mun.ca http://www.physics.mun.ca:80/~sstamp/

The one unforgivable sin, the offence against one's own integrity,
is to accept anything at all simply on authority -- Maureen Johnson Long

Anyone can hold the helm when the sea is calm. -- Publilius Syrus

[Timo Pietilä]

Post by Cliff Stamp

Perfect or near perfect saving is pretty much necessary, othervise
high speed doesn't help against Morgoth because brain smash will slow
you down. (13 + 13 + 4 + 10 = 40, just enough)

Can't you get FA in a amulet? You can get SI in scrolls/potions so I would
not trade a lot for that.

Yes, Amulet of magi. But that means that you lose Trickery. Of course
two RoS, AoMagi and MHDSM with Warrior is a very good combination of things.

You get around 850 points of HP and rBase+rPoison+rConf with see inv and
FA. If you use BoC then you can add there rChaos. That is actually
better than I have thought of. I didn't check how big HP Warrior gets
with internal bonus to CON and without RoCON.

Combine that with Dwarf rBlind and you are pretty much set. Dwarf has
better saving, rBlind, d11 hit die (H-Troll has d12) and +2 to CON
(H-Troll +3).

Early levels are problem, later this turns a good chance to survive to
the end.

If my current character dies I might try this next.

Post by Cliff Stamp

Post by Cliff Stamp
With ranger you are looking at ~175 per round with seeker arrows, that is
probably the same as a MoD vs non-undead so no offense advantage

Hmmm... (4d4 +10 +10) *3 *3 = 180.

270 not 180.

Post by Cliff Stamp
They get three shots now?

They have always got that in vanilla. two shots at clvl 20 and three at
clvl 40.

Post by Cliff Stamp
Unless I screwed up the numbers big time I think it would take forever to
get enough potions and scrolls to last that long in a fight with him
assuming it would overcome regen and his healing. Is there a monster mana
pool in vanilla?

No. Monsters can cast spells and breathe infinitely in vanilla.

Timo Pietilä

[Wil Hunt]

Timo Pietilä wrote:

<snip>

Post by Timo Pietilä

[Rangers] get three shots now?

They have always got that in vanilla. two shots at clvl 20 and three at
clvl 40.

How does this combine with extra shots from the bow? Is this additive
or multiplicative?

[Timo Pietilä]

Post by Wil Hunt
<snip>

Post by Timo Pietilä

[Rangers] get three shots now?

They have always got that in vanilla. two shots at clvl 20 and three
at clvl 40.

How does this combine with extra shots from the bow? Is this additive
or multiplicative?

Additive. If bow has two extra shots and you are playing clvl >40 Ranger
you get 5 shots.

Timo Pietilä

[Cliff Stamp]

Additive. If bow has two extra shots and you are playing clvl >40 Ranger you
get 5 shots.

If you are using a ranger with a might/shots bow +1 or a +2 might bow which
one actually does more damage. Is the multiplier (shots,bow,slay) 4x4x3=48
and 3x5x3=45, or is the speed not linear like movement.

--
Cliff Stamp
***@physics.mun.ca http://www.physics.mun.ca:80/~sstamp/

The one unforgivable sin, the offence against one's own integrity,
is to accept anything at all simply on authority -- Maureen Johnson Long

Anyone can hold the helm when the sea is calm. -- Publilius Syrus

[Timo Pietilä]

Post by Cliff Stamp

Post by Timo Pietilä
Additive. If bow has two extra shots and you are playing clvl >40
Ranger you get 5 shots.

If you are using a ranger with a might/shots bow +1 or a +2 might bow which
one actually does more damage. Is the multiplier (shots,bow,slay) 4x4x3=48
and 3x5x3=45, or is the speed not linear like movement.

Speed in this case is linear. Extra shots works by halving energy needed
for next turn (for each shot), so no matter how fast you are you always
get extra shots based on your current speed.

Bard is better than Belthronding with Ranger. 5*3 = 15 while 3*4 = 12.
Other classes prefer Belthronding.

Timo Pietilä

[Timo Pietilä]

Post by Timo Pietilä
Speed in this case is linear. Extra shots works by halving energy needed
for next turn (for each shot)

Logical error. Halving for first shot. Your energy needed for next turn
gets divided by shots you have. Not 1/2, 1/4, 1/8 and so on as my
previous message said.

Timo Pietilä

[Wil Hunt]

Timo Pietilä wrote:

<snip>

Post by Timo Pietilä

Post by Cliff Stamp
They get three shots now?

They have always got that in vanilla. two shots at clvl 20 and three at
clvl 40.

<snip>

Hrm. I just checked my lvl 25 human ranger in Vanilla, and he still
just has one shot per round. Have the magic numbers been changed, perhaps?

[Pasi 'donalde' Vartiainen]

Post by Wil Hunt
<snip>

Post by Timo Pietilä

Post by Cliff Stamp
They get three shots now?

They have always got that in vanilla. two shots at clvl 20 and three
at clvl 40.

<snip>
Hrm. I just checked my lvl 25 human ranger in Vanilla, and he still
just has one shot per round. Have the magic numbers been changed, perhaps?

Are you using short or long bow, or some other missile weapon? Rangers
get xtra shot onnly with bow, not crossbow nor sling.

- donalde -

[Wil Hunt]

Pasi 'donalde' Vartiainen wrote:

<snip>

Post by Pasi 'donalde' Vartiainen
Are you using short or long bow, or some other missile weapon? Rangers
get xtra shot onnly with bow, not crossbow nor sling.
- donalde -

Well there you have it then. I was using a light x-bow. Now I have to
seriously consider going back to regular bows.

Grr.

So I presume then that bows are the standard choice for rangers and
xbows for other classes?

[Timo Pietilä]

Post by Wil Hunt
So I presume then that bows are the standard choice for rangers and
xbows for other classes?

Pretty much correct. Of course there are very good artifact bows so at
some point almost all use bow of some sort.

Timo Pietilä

[Cliff Stamp]

On Sun, 14 Aug 2005, [ISO-8859-15] Timo Pietilä wrote:

[Rangers]

Post by Cliff Stamp
They get three shots now?

They have always got that in vanilla. two shots at clvl 20 and three at clvl
40.

They used to get one, I ran a ranger when they first got extra shot, and
never found an ego bow the whole game, RNG oddness. There used to be x4
bows as well.

Ben introduced triple shot x-bows, so at one time you could get a triple
heavy x-bow of might and get a 45x multiplier on missle ammo, it made for
insane damage. It was quickly nerfed and then removed.

Anyway with a 9x multiplier and making a stack of +15 arrows and a +15 bow,
as it is going to be a *long* game, you have much more offence than a
warrior with a plain weapon and no +dam sources.

However getting enough healing potions to go ~100 turns is going to be an
insane task, a priest makes this more versatile as you can use mana, but
then you are looking at a pityful damage output of maybe ~75 per round.

Have you been able to kill any high level unique?

--
Cliff Stamp
***@physics.mun.ca http://www.physics.mun.ca:80/~sstamp/

The one unforgivable sin, the offence against one's own integrity,
is to accept anything at all simply on authority -- Maureen Johnson Long

Anyone can hold the helm when the sea is calm. -- Publilius Syrus

[Timo Pietilä]

Post by Cliff Stamp
However getting enough healing potions to go ~100 turns is going to be an
insane task, a priest makes this more versatile as you can use mana, but
then you are looking at a pityful damage output of maybe ~75 per round.

OoD doubles its damage against evil. At clvl 50 that is (3d6+75)*2 IE
171 points of damage. And that costs only 7 mana.

Post by Cliff Stamp
Have you been able to kill any high level unique?

Sure. Only Angels are real trouble.

Timo Pietilä

[Cliff Stamp]

Post by Cliff Stamp
However getting enough healing potions to go ~100 turns is going to be an
insane task, a priest makes this more versatile as you can use mana, but
then you are looking at a pityful damage output of maybe ~75 per round.

OoD doubles its damage against evil. At clvl 50 that is (3d6+75)*2 IE 171
points of damage. And that costs only 7 mana.

That is probably still your best bet against Morgoth, vs MoD is going to be
far less even if you get 4 swings, and other than rangers missle weapons
will be useless.

[no ego char]

Post by Cliff Stamp
Have you been able to kill any high level unique?

Sure. Only Angels are real trouble.

What is the highest guy taken down, have you killed any that can heal or
regenerate. Are you posting dumps on the ladder?


--
Cliff Stamp
***@physics.mun.ca http://www.physics.mun.ca:80/~sstamp/

The one unforgivable sin, the offence against one's own integrity,
is to accept anything at all simply on authority -- Maureen Johnson Long

Anyone can hold the helm when the sea is calm. -- Publilius Syrus

[Timo Pietilä]

Post by Cliff Stamp

Post by Timo Pietilä
Sure. Only Angels are real trouble.

What is the highest guy taken down, have you killed any that can heal or
regenerate. Are you posting dumps on the ladder?

I have killed Morgoth using only OoD earlier. It only takes speed,
potions of restore mana and healing. It should not be any different with
egoless, only surviving long enough to get that speed is a issue. YASD
by some stupid move is more probable outcome than lack of offensive power.

Ungoliant can heal and is hardest to kill by OoD for that reason. Second
worse is Fundin (non-evil healer). Both can be killed.

Timo Pietilä

[Cliff Stamp]

On Mon, 15 Aug 2005, [UTF-8] Timo PietilÀ wrote:

[OoD Morgoth]

It should not be any different with egoless ...

You will be slower, with less HP's, full of resist holes, and non 0%
healing/escape.

The last part is critical long term game wise because if you depend on
spells in critical situations you are going to see them fail many times in
the course of the game.

I would estimate the last priest I ran, who moved fast and ignored a lot of
things, still cast about 1000 spells in a cast-or-die state. Even with a 1%
fail that is still 10 times you are going to roll the dice on another turn.

With all the resist holes the fight will be more dangerous because there
will be a much greater chance of dying on a summon unless you go down with
an insane amount of banishment and destruction scrolls.

You also can't get ESP which makes it more dangerous in a long fight, or
soaks up more scrolls/staves to knock the guys off the level via destruction.

The fight will also be a lot longer as a normal char can actually ignore a
decent amount of summons, due to high level resists, immunities, and more
hp's.

I was thinking Morgoth could heal as he does in NPP, the fact that he
doesn't means you can kill him with anything as long as you have the support
scrolls/staves, but in a really long fight the chances of RNG death go up.

Does wizard mode still exist, can you just create a CL50 char to see what he
looks like with max stats in maximize mode. Anyone have one they can strip
and post the stats plus the fail rates for the critical spells?

--
Cliff Stamp
***@physics.mun.ca http://www.physics.mun.ca:80/~sstamp/

The one unforgivable sin, the offence against one's own integrity,
is to accept anything at all simply on authority -- Maureen Johnson Long

Anyone can hold the helm when the sea is calm. -- Publilius Syrus

[Timo Pietilä]

Post by Cliff Stamp
Does wizard mode still exist, can you just create a CL50 char to see what he
looks like with max stats in maximize mode. Anyone have one they can strip
and post the stats plus the fail rates for the critical spells?

No need for Wizard mode. 1% failure for critical spells. Can't use edged
weapons then, though (2000 points healing gets to 9% failure with edged
and with 18/150 WIS). Here is sample CD:

note: Swaps slow you down by one. You have to drop extra DSM for final
fight.

[Angband 3.0.5 Character Dump]

Name Wizard Self RB CB EB Best
Sex Male Age 47 STR! 18/100 +2 -1 +0 18/110
Race Dwarf Height 48 INT! 18/100 -3 -3 +0 18/40
Class Priest Weight 149 WIS! 18/100 +2 +3 +0 18/150
Title Patriarch Status 43 DEX! 18/100 -2 -1 +4 18/110
HP 857/857 Maximize Y CON! 18/100 +2 +0 +6 18/180
SP 294/324 Preserve Y CHR! 18/100 -3 +2 +0 18/90

Level 50 Armor [49,+92] Saving Throw Legendary
Cur Exp 99999999 Fight (+11,+7) Stealth Very Good
Max Exp 99999999 Melee (+26,+22) Fighting Legendary
Adv Exp ******** Shoot (+26,+15) Shooting Heroic
MaxDepth Town Blows 4/turn Disarming Superb
Gold 999999999 Shots 1/turn Magic Device Heroic
Perception Very Good
Burden 191.1 lbs Infra 90 ft Searching Excellent

You are the only child of a Dwarven Miner. You are a credit to the
family. You have dark brown eyes, wavy black hair, a two foot beard,
and a dark complexion.


abcdefghijkl@ abcdefghijkl@
Acid:......+...... Blind:............+
Elec:......+...... Confu:.............
Fire:......+...... Sound:.............
Cold:......+...... Shard:.............
Pois:....+.+...... Nexus:....+........
Fear:............. Nethr:.............
Lite:............. Chaos:.............
Dark:............. Disen:.............

abcdefghijkl@ abcdefghijkl@
S.Dig:............. Stea.:....+........
Feath:............. Sear.:....+........
PLite:............. Infra:....+........
Regen:............. Tunn.:.............
Telep:............. Speed:..+.+........
Invis:............. Blows:.............
FrAct:............. Shots:.............
HLife:............. Might:.............


[Character Equipment]

a) a Lucerne Hammer (2d5) (+15,+15)
b) a Long Bow (x3) (+15,+15)
c) a Quartzite Ring of Speed (+12)
It increases your speed by 12.
d) a Calcite Ring of Constitution (+6)
It increases your constitution by 6. It sustains your constitution.
e) a Brass Amulet of Trickery (+4)
It increases your dexterity by 4. It increases your stealth, searching,
infravision, and speed by 4. It provides resistance to poison and
nexus. It sustains your dexterity.
f) a Brass Lantern (with 14987 turns of light)
It cannot be harmed by fire.
g) Multi-Hued Dragon Scale Mail (-2) [30,+10]
It provides resistance to acid, lightning, fire, cold, and poison. It
activates for breathe multi-hued (250) every 225+d225 turns. It cannot
be harmed by the elements.
h) a Shadow Cloak [6,+15]
i) a Shield of Deflection [10,+15]
It cannot be harmed by acid.
j) a Jewel Encrusted Crown [0,+15]
It cannot be harmed by acid.
k) a Set of Leather Gloves [1,+15]
l) a Pair of Soft Leather Boots [2,+15]


[Character Inventory]

a) 4 Holy Books of Prayers [Words of Wisdom] {@p2!k!d!v=g}
b) 4 Holy Books of Prayers [Chants and Blessings] {@p3!k!d!v=g}
c) 4 Holy Books of Prayers [Exorcism and Dispelling] {@p4!k!d!v=g}
d) a Holy Book of Prayers [Ethereal Openings] {@p5!k!d!v=g}
It cannot be harmed by the elements.
e) a Holy Book of Prayers [Godly Insights] {@p6!k!d!v=g}
It cannot be harmed by the elements.
f) a Holy Book of Prayers [Purifications and Healing] {@p7!k!d!v=g}
It cannot be harmed by the elements.
g) a Holy Book of Prayers [Holy Infusions] {@p8!k!d!v=g}
It cannot be harmed by the elements.
h) a Holy Book of Prayers [Wrath of God] {@p9!k!d!v=g}
It cannot be harmed by the elements.
i) 3 Flasks of oil
j) 20 Chartreuse Potions of Speed
k) 20 Orange Speckled Potions of Healing
l) 10 Yellow Potions of *Healing*
m) 10 Metallic Blue Potions of Life
n) 10 Scrolls titled "nihsnik snoaus" of Teleportation
o) 10 Scrolls titled "frikli ash mi" of Mass Banishment
p) an Ivory Rod of Speed
It cannot be harmed by electricity.
q) a Coral Amulet of Wisdom (+6)
It increases your wisdom by 6. It sustains your wisdom.
r) a Bronze Amulet of the Magi [+1] (+1)
It increases your intelligence by 1. It increases your searching by 1.
It provides resistance to confusion. It sustains your intelligence.
It grants you immunity to paralysis and the ability to see invisible
things. It cannot be harmed by the elements.
s) a Mother-of-Pearl Amulet of ESP (+5)
It increases your searching by 5. It grants you the power of telepathy.
It cannot be harmed by the elements.
t) Balance Dragon Scale Mail (-2) [30,+10]
It provides resistance to sound, shards, chaos, and disenchantment. It
activates for breathe balance (250) every 300+d300 turns. It cannot be
harmed by the elements.
u) a Blade of Chaos (6d5) (+15,+15)
It provides resistance to chaos.
v) 20 Mithril Arrows (3d4) (+15,+15)
It cannot be harmed by acid or fire.


[Options]

Adult: Allow purchase of stats using points : yes (adult_point_based)
Adult: Allow specification of minimal stats : no (adult_auto_roller)
Adult: Maximize effect of race/class bonuses : yes (adult_maximize)
Adult: Preserve artifacts when leaving level : yes (adult_preserve)
Adult: Restrict the use of stairs/recall : no (adult_ironman)
Adult: Restrict the use of stores/home : no (adult_no_stores)
Adult: Restrict creation of artifacts : no (adult_no_artifacts)
Adult: Randomize some of the artifacts (beta): no (adult_rand_artifacts)
Adult: Don't stack objects on the floor : no (adult_no_stacking)
Score: Peek into object creation : no (score_peek)
Score: Peek into monster creation : no (score_hear)
Score: Peek into dungeon creation : no (score_room)
Score: Peek into something else : no (score_xtra)
Score: Know complete monster info : no (score_know)
Score: Allow player to avoid death : no (score_live)


Timo Pietilä

[Cliff Stamp]

Post by Timo Pietilä
Class Priest Weight 149 WIS! 18/100 +2 +3 +0 18/150
Title Patriarch Status 43 DEX! 18/100 -2 -1 +4 18/110
HP 857/857 Maximize Y CON! 18/100 +2 +0 +6 18/180
SP 294/324 Preserve Y CHR! 18/100 -3 +2 +0 18/90
Level 50 Armor [49,+92] Saving Throw Legendary
Cur Exp 99999999 Fight (+11,+7) Stealth Very Good
Max Exp 99999999 Melee (+26,+22) Fighting Legendary
Adv Exp ******** Shoot (+26,+15) Shooting Heroic
MaxDepth Town Blows 4/turn Disarming Superb
Gold 999999999 Shots 1/turn Magic Device Heroic
Perception Very Good
Burden 191.1 lbs Infra 90 ft Searching Excellent
[Character Equipment]
a) a Lucerne Hammer (2d5) (+15,+15)

Is this the heaviest weapon you can get four swings with?

Post by Timo Pietilä
b) a Long Bow (x3) (+15,+15)

Heavy x-bow?

Post by Timo Pietilä
c) a Quartzite Ring of Speed (+12)
d) a Calcite Ring of Constitution (+6)
e) a Brass Amulet of Trickery (+4)
f) a Brass Lantern (with 14987 turns of light)
g) Multi-Hued Dragon Scale Mail (-2) [30,+10]
h) a Shadow Cloak [6,+15]
i) a Shield of Deflection [10,+15]
j) a Jewel Encrusted Crown [0,+15]
k) a Set of Leather Gloves [1,+15]
l) a Pair of Soft Leather Boots [2,+15]
i) 3 Flasks of oil
j) 20 Chartreuse Potions of Speed
k) 20 Orange Speckled Potions of Healing
l) 10 Yellow Potions of *Healing*
m) 10 Metallic Blue Potions of Life
n) 10 Scrolls titled "nihsnik snoaus" of Teleportation
o) 10 Scrolls titled "frikli ash mi" of Mass Banishment

How long would it take to get this stack of prep scrolls/potions?

Post by Timo Pietilä
p) an Ivory Rod of Speed

Only one?

Post by Timo Pietilä
q) a Coral Amulet of Wisdom (+6)

Does this influence spell % or just mana?

Post by Timo Pietilä
r) a Bronze Amulet of the Magi [+1] (+1)
s) a Mother-of-Pearl Amulet of ESP (+5)
t) Balance Dragon Scale Mail (-2) [30,+10]

This seems kind of risky as a swap. Since this is likely to be a long game
won't PSDM likely turn up?

Post by Timo Pietilä
u) a Blade of Chaos (6d5) (+15,+15)

Is this of any benefit, you are only doing ~160 hps per round, and there is
no way all of them are going to hit, probably 80 would be a decent average.
What does OoD do against non-evil? Similar with the arrows. Doesn't MoD get
an automatic slay against undead. If so then the damage would be more even
with just two swings.

--
Cliff Stamp
***@physics.mun.ca http://www.physics.mun.ca:80/~sstamp/

The one unforgivable sin, the offence against one's own integrity,
is to accept anything at all simply on authority -- Maureen Johnson Long

Anyone can hold the helm when the sea is calm. -- Publilius Syrus

[Timo Pietilä]

Post by Cliff Stamp

Post by Timo Pietilä
a) a Lucerne Hammer (2d5) (+15,+15)

Is this the heaviest weapon you can get four swings with?

Weight in general is a problem. This char has only 18/110 STR and no way
to get it any bigger. If I don't plan to get slowed I need light gear.

Post by Cliff Stamp

Post by Timo Pietilä
b) a Long Bow (x3) (+15,+15)

Heavy x-bow?

Same reason as above.

Post by Cliff Stamp
How long would it take to get this stack of prep scrolls/potions?

looong time. But not too long.

Of course if you are used to diving as fast as you can then it will feel
too slow.

Post by Cliff Stamp

Post by Timo Pietilä
p) an Ivory Rod of Speed

Only one?

Rare. Too rare.

Post by Cliff Stamp

Post by Timo Pietilä
q) a Coral Amulet of Wisdom (+6)

Does this influence spell % or just mana?

Both. With this failure is 0% (WIS 18/210)

Post by Cliff Stamp

Post by Timo Pietilä
r) a Bronze Amulet of the Magi [+1] (+1)
s) a Mother-of-Pearl Amulet of ESP (+5)
t) Balance Dragon Scale Mail (-2) [30,+10]

This seems kind of risky as a swap. Since this is likely to be a long game
won't PSDM likely turn up?

Haven't seen any ever. JLE-boosted possibility to find PDSM a little so
it might be possible to find one. If one turns out then all resistance
problems are over immediately.

Post by Cliff Stamp

Post by Timo Pietilä
u) a Blade of Chaos (6d5) (+15,+15)

Is this of any benefit

For chaos resist when I need basic4 at the same time.

Post by Cliff Stamp
What does OoD do against non-evil? Similar with the arrows. Doesn't MoD
get an automatic slay against undead. If so then the damage would be more even
with just two swings.

MoD is _way_ too heavy. Maybe I could use one and lose some other items
to save weight.

Timo Pietilä

[Cliff Stamp]

MoD is _way_ too heavy. Maybe I could use one and lose some other items to
save weight.

I think I would ditch the bow and arrows and just carry the MoD, the
difference in offence vs undead is huge. However it doesn't actually do
anything to keep you alive, just allows you to kill things faster and since
you can use prayers to heal in most cases you don't need to worry as much
about resources. If you were looking to save weight I would ditch the
primary weapon and bow and arrows and just kill evil things with OoD for
drops and WoD everything else annoying. No staves of the magi?

As for PSDM, I have not seen it in a long while, I don't think I ever found
Bladeturner, but have seen PSDM, but early on I ran some really scummy
characters who cloned Wyrms with immunity, this was before the clone was
heal/haste it is now, so it was trivial to do without any risk and there
were no big funky Wyrms anyway. I know I found the one ring and feanor, the
boots more than once. I have not seen all the weapons either.

But this character I assume will actually spend a lot of time at low depths,
so PDSM should turn up in drops, or do you usually level early and then just
dive to 4950? Are amulets of devotion in vanilla, or is the wis boost not
enough to get to 0%?

--
Cliff Stamp
***@physics.mun.ca http://www.physics.mun.ca:80/~sstamp/

The one unforgivable sin, the offence against one's own integrity,
is to accept anything at all simply on authority -- Maureen Johnson Long

Anyone can hold the helm when the sea is calm. -- Publilius Syrus

[Timo Pietilä]

Post by Cliff Stamp
But this character I assume will actually spend a lot of time at low
depths, so PDSM should turn up in drops, or do you usually level early and then
just dive to 4950?

Between those. I stop diving and spend time in levels where uniques
start to be annoyingly common in order to kill some of them, then dive
again. But that is in normal game. In this challenge I have to dive very
carefully.

Post by Cliff Stamp
Are amulets of devotion in vanilla, or is the wis boost not
enough to get to 0%?

Devotion has max PVAL of 4 and that is not enough for 0%. OTOH it does
give rDark and rLight so I might use it against Sauron (no need for +4
speed from Trickery against Sauron).

I haven't got time to play for long time now, there is large worm-attack
in university network and I'm busy fighting that (W32.Esbot.A). It
managed to get in firewall from infected laptop and was new enough that
anti-virus programs didn't regocnise it at that time. But there is a
good side in that too: it revealed to us what machines do not get their
upgrades from our centralised administration. (pretty wild environment:
All Windows versions form 9X onward, Mac with at least four different
OS:s and several linux machines. And that is only in my department).

Timo Pietilä

[Ramela]

On 2005-08-15 21:22:15, =?UTF-8?B?VGltbyBQaWV0aWzDpA==?=

Post by Timo Pietilä

Post by Cliff Stamp

Post by Timo Pietilä
Sure. Only Angels are real trouble.

What is the highest guy taken down, have you killed any that can heal or
regenerate. Are you posting dumps on the ladder?

I have killed Morgoth using only OoD earlier. It only takes speed,
potions of restore mana and healing. It should not be any different with
egoless, only surviving long enough to get that speed is a issue. YASD
by some stupid move is more probable outcome than lack of offensive power.

Killed Morgoth with only spell books, 1 staff or speed, 1 staff of the magi and
1 staff of banishment. No scrolls or potions, just a lot of recharging and an
average kit with +34 speed while hasted.

Staves not breaking at all after failed recharges is broken. :)

[Werner Bär]

I have killed Morgoth using only OoD earlier. It only takes speed, potions of restore mana and healing.

Did it too. Even in the version with the doubled spell casting rate
for intelligent monsters.

Ungoliant can heal and is hardest to kill by OoD for that reason. Second worse is Fundin (non-evil healer). Both can be killed.

In my experience, Ungoliant is easier, since she is evil.

I wasn't able to kill Fundin, until he summoned some nice hounds
(sound or impact). Then he was stunned some time, and couldn't heal
every turn (which he did otherwise)

Werner.

[Timo Pietilä]

Post by Werner Bär

Post by Timo Pietilä
Ungoliant can heal and is hardest to kill by OoD for that reason.
Second worse is Fundin (non-evil healer). Both can be killed.

In my experience, Ungoliant is easier, since she is evil.

That's probably because you have better gear against Ungoliant or she
has lower spellcasting rate. IIRC healing is some % from max HP and
because Ungoliant has more than twice Fundins HP she should be harder.

Anyway both of them have been pretty easy for me.

Timo Pietilä

[Werner Bär]

Post by Werner Bär

Ungoliant can heal and is hardest to kill by OoD for that reason. Second worse is Fundin (non-evil healer). Both can be killed.

In my experience, Ungoliant is easier, since she is evil.

That's probably because you have better gear against Ungoliant or she has lower spellcasting rate. IIRC healing is some % from max
HP and because Ungoliant has more than twice Fundins HP she should be harder.

Well, in the game i'm thinking off, i didn't have better gear at
Ungoliant, since i killed Fundin later.
And she casts spells more often than him.

It was with intelligent monsters on, so maybe the 'innate' spells
(the breath attacks) made the difference.
Or the fact that you can damage her with dispel evil when you can see her,
even if you don't have clear LOS for the Orb.

Anyway both of them have been pretty easy for me.

So i assume Morgy will die soon ;-)

Werner.

[pete mack]

Post by Cliff Stamp
[player at +26]

Post by Timo Pietilä
In energy that is 36 vs Morgoths 38.

I hate game play aspects like that. How are you supposed to figure that out
from the monster descriptions. I knew it wasn't linear but never thought it
was that bad. Yeah based on those numbers additional RoS are of little
benefit, offence wise even +dam or slaying is way better as a good one
probably doubles your offence.

That holds for melee. As a Ranger, there's maybe a 1.5% improvement,
even if you wear Accuracy +17. Even the lousy 8% speed difference is
better.

A priest could wear whatever he likes, too, since he'd probably be
using Devotion+OoD. 320 damage/round, 6000 damage per flask of !mana.
That's 4 flasks for Morgy, an easy kill. With such pathetic weapon
skills, he'd be pure caster, for sure.

Post by Cliff Stamp

Post by Timo Pietilä
Hmmm... (4d4 +10 +10) *3 *3 = 180.

They get three shots now?

Yes, in Vanilla. Anyway, Ranger in Vanilla gets Tenser, so he can get
his ammo up to +13, and bow up to 14. In a game like this, it's worth
it. Ranger hits 75% of shots vs Morgoth, so he's actually doing pretty
well.

.75 * ((4d4+14+13) *3 *3) = 247

I think Dwarf/Dunadan Priest as pure caster wearing Devotion, or
High-Elf/Dunadan Ranger wearing Trickery are best possibilities. And
Ranger and Priest have all those good defensive spells, too.

[Cliff Stamp]

Post by pete mack
A priest could wear whatever he likes, too, since he'd probably be
using Devotion+OoD. 320 damage/round, 6000 damage per flask of !mana.
That's 4 flasks for Morgy, an easy kill. With such pathetic weapon
skills, he'd be pure caster, for sure.

OoD does 320 hp's vs evil at max level? What is the calculation? I thought
it was something like +clevel * 1.5 for evil?

Post by pete mack
Ranger hits 75% of shots vs Morgoth, so he's actually doing pretty
well.
.75 * ((4d4+14+13) *3 *3) = 247

You also have to factor in turns you can't shoot, so your average damage per
round is WAY lower.

--
Cliff Stamp
***@physics.mun.ca http://www.physics.mun.ca:80/~sstamp/

The one unforgivable sin, the offence against one's own integrity,
is to accept anything at all simply on authority -- Maureen Johnson Long

Anyone can hold the helm when the sea is calm. -- Publilius Syrus

[Timo Pietilä]

Post by Cliff Stamp

Post by pete mack
A priest could wear whatever he likes, too, since he'd probably be
using Devotion+OoD. 320 damage/round, 6000 damage per flask of !mana.

OoD does 320 hp's vs evil at max level? What is the calculation? I thought
it was something like +clevel * 1.5 for evil?

3d6+1.5*clvl. 320 is not right. Around 170 is.

Timo Pietilä

[Timo Pietilä]

Post by Timo Pietilä

Post by Cliff Stamp

Post by pete mack
A priest could wear whatever he likes, too, since he'd probably be
using Devotion+OoD. 320 damage/round, 6000 damage per flask of !mana.

OoD does 320 hp's vs evil at max level? What is the calculation? I thought
it was something like +clevel * 1.5 for evil?

3d6+1.5*clvl. 320 is not right. Around 170 is.

That's (3d6+1.5*clvl)*2 against evil. Against non-evil it is half that
(obviously).

Timo Pietilä

[Timo Pietilä]

Post by d***@gmail.com
Oh mighty gurus of the pits! Powerful sages of the deep! I humbly
beseech your wisdom!
elec doesn't concern me a ton because I have Taratol as my weapon swap,

Use it as main weapon, store Hurin at home.

Post by d***@gmail.com
Also, I am wondering if I can safely sell Evenstar now that I have the

Evenstar gives rCold which covers your another resistance hole.

Post by d***@gmail.com
It is especially deadly against dragons. It is branded with
electricity. It provides immunity to lightning. It activates for
haste self (20+d20 turns) every 100+d100 turns. It cannot be harmed by
the elements.

If you calculate you notice that Taratol isn't much weaker weapon than
Hurin. Brand Elec and kill dragon are very useful as is haste
self-activation for warrior.

In whole using Thorin gives you +4 to STR and CON and rSound and rChaos
ans Evenstar few sustains and Taratol IMM_elec and you lose +2 to STR,
DEX and CON and speed and nexus resist

That +2 to STR in your case adds +3 to DAM, so difference between Hurin
and Taratol goes even smaller.

Anyway, don't leave resistance holes in basic four in that deep.
Especially Cold is to worry (several monsters breating big damage).

You should consider using another rings. Barahir and slaying aren't very
good. Two big RoDam increases your damage much more and Ring of rCold
would allow you to swap back that Trickery amulet.

Post by d***@gmail.com
i) an Alexandrite Ring of Resist Poison
It provides resistance to poison.
j) an Adamantite Ring of Dexterity (+5)
It increases your dexterity by 5. It sustains your dexterity.

You can sell these. Barahir has rPoison and you have overkill DEX
(18/150 is enough for everything).

Timo Pietilä

[Juho Schultz]

Post by d***@gmail.com
I have just encountered the shield of Thorin - does it strike anyone
else as funny that the shield of Thorin Oakenshield should be a small
metal?

IIRC Thorin was named "Oakenshield" as he was once
using an oak stick instead of shield.

Post by d***@gmail.com
- and swapped it in for Celegorm which I have used for a long
while. In so doing, I have lost res elec and cold, but gained imm acid
and res chaos and sound (both of which were previously missing).

I was in a similar situation a few weeks ago, although this was
with a Dwarven Priest, and a bit deeper, around dlvl 90.

The equipment was quite similar to yours.

a) The Long Sword 'Anduril' (3d5) (+10,+15) [+10] (+4)
b) a Heavy Crossbow of Extra Shots (x4) (+22,+19) (+1)
c) a Corundum Ring of Speed (+8)
d) a Corundum Ring of Speed (+9)
e) The Necklace of the Dwarves (+3)
f) The Arkenstone of Thrain
g) The Augmented Chain Mail of Caspanion (-2) [16,+20] (+3)
h) Cloak of Aman [1,+17] (+1 to Stealth){nexus}
i) The Large Metal Shield of Anarion [5,+20]
j) The Hard Leather Cap of Thranduil [2,+10] (+2)
k) The Set of Cesti of Fingolfin (+10,+10) [5,+20] (+4)
l) The Pair of Metal Shod Boots of Thror [6,+20] (+3)

Four identical slots, two very similar (Boots, Shield) and
you have one ring of Speed in the Shooter slot.

The advice I got: Chaos and sound are good to have,
confusion, poison and basic four are also very important.
More important than +8 to speed.

Post by d***@gmail.com
Any suggestions, o wise ones?

The experience: rSound/Chaos is not necessary to stay alive, but
makes things easier. You can go a lot deeper with that equipment.
Just be careful. Staying away from heavy Chaos/Sound attacks is
much easier than staying away from heavy lightning/cold attacks.

Use Celegorm for the time being, but keep your eyes open.
There are plenty of options that would allow swapping in Thorin:
Amulet of Resistance, Crown of Magi (+ amulet or ESP), and many
artifacts, Isildur and Rohirrim are probably the easiest to find.

Post by d***@gmail.com
Also, I am wondering if I can safely sell Evenstar now that I have the
Arkenstone of Thrain for res life drain. Any other tips or suggestions
on what to look out for? A thousand thanks in advance!!!!!!

If you need more home inventory slots, sell the Ring of Resist Poison first.
I would carry Evenstar as a swap - use the activation instead of the potions.

[Timo Pietilä]

Post by Juho Schultz
The advice I got: Chaos and sound are good to have,
confusion, poison and basic four are also very important.
More important than +8 to speed.

Usually the main reason to use Thorin is not resists or FA, but that +4
to STR and CON. Having +4 to constitution usually allows character much
wider selection of equipment and mainly usually frees one ring slot
(RoCON) for better rings.

For that same reason Caspanion (in addition of rConf and rPoison) and
Cambeleg are popular choises for equipment.

Using Caspanion and Thorin causes holes in basic 4 and that is most
conveniently covered by headgear. Dor-Lomin or Crown of Magi usually.
Then problem is rBlind.

Basically for easy exploring you need:

CON somewhere around 18/200
STR high enough that you don't get slowed too much
basic 4
RPoison
rConfusion
Speed to match monsters.
rBlind.

rBlind is not so important if you are high level warrior with ESP and
carry staves of teleportation.

rSound is more important to spellcasters than others (stunning hurts
spellcasting) and stunning can cause instant death if not careful for
all. Pack of Plasma/Gravity hounds can KO in one turn.

Timo Pietilä

[Juho Schultz]

Post by Timo Pietilä

Post by Juho Schultz
The advice I got: Chaos and sound are good to have,
confusion, poison and basic four are also very important.
More important than +8 to speed.

Usually the main reason to use Thorin is not resists or FA, but that +4
to STR and CON. Having +4 to constitution usually allows character much
wider selection of equipment and mainly usually frees one ring slot
(RoCON) for better rings.

Have a look at the original post, with great stats:
18/210 of STR and 18/230 CON with Caspanion + Celegorm.
STR and CON of Thorin are overkill in this case.
And he gets only one CON point from the ring.

So this does not apply here.

[Timo Pietilä]

Post by Timo Pietilä
Usually the main reason to use Thorin is not resists or FA, but that
+4 to STR and CON. Having +4 to constitution usually allows character
much wider selection of equipment and mainly usually frees one ring
slot (RoCON) for better rings.

Have a look at the original post, with great stats: 18/210 of STR and
18/230 CON with Caspanion + Celegorm.

No, that is with Thorin. With Celegorm those are 18/170 and 18/190
respectively.

STR and CON of Thorin are overkill in this case.
And he gets only one CON point from the ring.

One from ring, two from weapon, and three from armor. That's six points.
He gets three from being Gnome Warrior so that is total nine points. One
below 18/200 barrier. With Thorin he can use Ring of Resist electricity
in place of Barahir and swap Hurin for Glaive of Pain and still be at
18/200. So it did free one ring slot in this case too.

Of course in his case his rings are not very good anyway so this doesn't
do much for him.

Timo Pietilä

[Werner Bär]

Using Caspanion and Thorin causes holes in basic 4 and that is most conveniently covered by headgear. Dor-Lomin or Crown of Magi
usually. Then problem is rBlind.

In 3.x, the resistance holes can be nicely filled by the new short bows
(Amros and Amrad, or whatever)

Werner.