Post by b***@inmail24.com(Discussion - Is Ironman also about, or not-about fast diving?)
Post by magnateWell, there are two ways to play ironman. One is to get what you can
out of each level, clearing it before continuing down. The other is to
dive like Cliff or Eddie, relying on stealth and tactics to stay alive
until you find good enough loot to help. Both are challenging, but for
me the former would be too much like normal quest-driven play (I end
up pretty much clearing every quest level, though not the levels in
between).
Got you. I find too many things too threatening even as it is to go
fast-dive, though, although granted, the loot you skipped when you
skip a level is less consequential on average than the loot you are
about to find. Level 1 at least is a bit of an exception, though,
since the threat level is so exceedingly low and there are so many
locks to pick, potions of water to drink, scrolls of darkness to read,
etc., that can bring you into the rest of the game stronger...
*assuming* you it doesn't bore you to be that thorough. Which is, as
you note, a matter of personal taste. For me, fortunately (I guess),
it's a nice soothing, meditative part of the game, a low-threat warmup
before heading to the dogs and to the quest monsters below them.
I agree with you here. I lose a *lot* of characters to Grip/Fang/
Feldisham simply because I don't spend long enough on level 1. Since
re-rolling and shopping are tedious, I'm trying to train myself to
clear at least two-thirds of dl1, so that I have a decent chance of
surviving when I descend. For me this means good enough karate or
wrestling to give Grip a solid punch on the nose - 10% or better.
I think it pretty much only applies at dl1 though. If you can survive
Grip or Fang (let alone Feldisham), you can immediately dive to about
200' pretty safely (this assumes that you pick your fights, which
comes up further down this reply). Since I always play quests, I dive
to complete the first quest (always 150' or 200') and then come back
up to get the next. If I can survive the first quest then I'm rolling.
Post by b***@inmail24.comI have spent most of my rogueliking career with permalevel roguelikes
which are balanced for the player's fully exploiting each one of the
relative (to normal *band play) -ly small number of levels, by the
way, so clearing every level fully feels also more "normal" for me
because of that. Purely an emotional reason, but there you are. (That
history is also what attracts me to Ironman.)
Ah, yes - this is certainly a strong influence on your play style. My
only previous roguelike was Moria, which also had nonpersistent
levels. I did develop a habit of clearing levels, but then got bored
with the game, and my interest was rekindled after reading Eddie's
Tales of the Bold, so I tried diving and got to like it. S is a
perfect balance for me, because quests limit my diving, which means I
survive longer! I have much more trouble in O, where I rarely get past
2000' because I dive much faster.
Post by b***@inmail24.comPost by magnateWe have very different styles of play. I cannot survive the early game
without melee, even with oathed casters. I'm just too impatient, and
end up adjacent to monsters too many times (especially if I can't
restock ?phase).
With sorcerors, this quickly becomes irrelevant, as long as you are
watchful enough to recognize you'll be needing to phase *before*
you're low on MP.
?? Admittedly I've not tried many sorcerors, but my recollection is
that mana in the early levels is only enough for one or two phases
before running out - especially if I'm using magic missile to do my
killing. Perhaps you invest in a lot of mana early, in the way I do
with martial arts. That makes sense - it's a caster strategy I've not
tried yet, which I read recently - leave casting itself but reduce
your fail rate and pump mana until you have enough to kill stuff
reliably.
Post by b***@inmail24.comPost by magnateI can, with an oathed necro or priest, leave melee in
the twenties once dark bolt/OoD are viable killers, but I've never
played a character with no melee skill at all.
I think in normal play I'd be even less tempted to take melee on a
sorceror than in Ironman -- the ability to phase out and later
teleport out from scrolls until I'm blue in the face would remove all
MP worries for me.
Well listen, next time you play a non-melee caster, keep a note of
near misses or awkward fights where you end up next to the baddie and
have to phase away. At least in the early levels - it would be
interesting to see whether it's a significant problem or not. (More on
the need for melee, and martial arts in particular, below.)
Post by b***@inmail24.comPost by magnateHobbits make pretty good druids, though I know you don't rate the
druidic realm.
I rate it for normal play, just not for Ironman. This is purely
because they seem to lack escape methods in comparison to the other
three caster types, with lack of escapes seeming to be the number one
Ironman problem.
Hmm. I would have said that necros were pretty lacking in the escape
department too, but you will correctly point out that I have not fully
appreciated the utility of Become Bat. I'll get back to you on this.
Post by b***@inmail24.comPost by magnateHowever, my gut feeling is that a hobbit would have the
best chance of survival without spells, as an oath burglar, killing
with traps, devices and melee/missiles/thrown in that order.
Do you mean (melee && missiles && thrown) or (melee && (missiles |
thrown))? I would think that taking both missiles and thrown would be
a waste.
Agreed.
Post by b***@inmail24.com(Discussion - how many skills is a lot?)
Post by magnatePost by b***@inmail24.com(With 10ish skills, won't you be jack of all trades, master of none?)
Yeah, I understand that. IME that problem normally kicks in around 12
skills, but it may be fewer in ironman.
Post by b***@inmail24.comOn the other hand, I know that you are much more experienced at
Sangband than I am, so I can only ask, "What am I missing?"
Well, let's consider. IMO ironman skills would fall into the following
categories -
Essential for all: Devices, Perception, Stealth(*), Spell Resistance
Need at least one of: (long list of attack skills and skillgroups)
(*)Probably uneconomic to invest in Stealth for a dwarf or giant.
Interestingly, my stealthless dwarven priest attempt got massacred on
level 6 in a "quiet... *too* quiet" moment where all of a sudden
Sangband pulled Mughash's Gang and a gradually growing band of
additional "onlookers" that only got bigger as I scroll-phased
helplessly about trying to survive. Hard to say if the kind of stealth
a dwarf can get would have made things any better.
I think Leon's design, if I understand it correctly, is that the
unstealthy races (Dwarves, Giants, Half-Trolls) should not bother to
try and creep around, but instead slug it out with whatever comes
their way (escaping if necessary). I don't think it's a coincidence
that the three least stealthy races have the biggest hit dice. I've
never tried pumping stealth with any of those races - I guess it might
make a bit of difference, but it seems perverse given that one wants
to play with as few skills as one can.
For unstealthy characters escapes are more important, which means that
in ironman, where escapes are severely limited by the lack of town,
stealth is even more important than usual. A giant sorceror or dwarf
priest could rely on escape spells, but I doubt that a non-caster of
those races would be viable in ironman. In fact it remains to be
proven whether any non-caster is viable in ironman, but a hobbit
burglar is my best bet.
Post by b***@inmail24.comPost by magnateSo a caster would need at least seven skills, but could add Alchemy
and Infusion for nine and Armor Forging for ten.
As an aside, in my experience, in the very early game, a sorceror does
best to stick strictly to their casting skills for the first level or
two, and a fighter-caster, to stick strictly to casting skills plus
their weapon skill. Magic device gets caught up next, or perhaps
perception if doors are getting annoying, then stealth or perception,
then perception if it wasn't already before then. Burglary can replace
magdev in this order, or come right after it.
That's interesting. I always pump my martial art first, right up to
21% (where there is a big cost jump) before pumping anything else at
all. That way I know I can kill pretty much anything that crosses my
path - even Mughash or Lagduf. At that point I then start to bring up
all the skills I intend to max out for that char - burglary and
friends, perception, saving throw, devices, forging, infusion -
whichever. I continue to pump the martial art so that it's about 10%
ahead of all the other skills. Using this method I have lost a couple
of characters to traps or failed saves when the martial art was in the
high teens (ie. just before pumping any other skills), but my survival
rate into the middle game is pretty high. I don't think it would need
adjusting for ironman, since it all takes place in the first trip down
in any event.
That's for warriors, burglars and warrior-casters (i.e. oathless
casters killing with melee and using spells as backup/utility). For
casters intending to actually kill with spells (whether oathed or
not), the three spell skills need to go up much earlier, almost in
parity with the martial art. I find that this lowers my survival rate
dramatically, and have not found a solution yet. The one I will try
(when I next bother with a primary caster) is to pump just mana
alongside the martial art, and leave the casting and realm skills with
the rest. That might be more effective (more killing power sooner).
Post by b***@inmail24.comWith my experience with how tight skillpoints have been, I still think
I'd skip Alchemy and Infusion, and definitely would skip them for a
fighting caster.
For a fighting caster yes, but for a pure caster they might help -
infusion especially. Although forging can make some cool stuff, what
you want in ironman is a way to fill resistance holes, because you
can't leave useful stuff at home - so I think infusion would be well
worthwhile. That said, I've never played ironman far enough to see if
this is true.
I'm really not very experienced with alchemy, it just seems like it
could be useful in ironman for making key scrolls and potions later
on.
The thing about the forging skills is that you don't have to raise
them until later on. Sure, you pay over the odds if you raise them
later, but that's still much more sensible than investing in them
early when you're not using them and the points would be better spent
on survival and killing skills. After all, there's an infinite amount
of xp available, so it doesn't really matter if you pay a bit more. So
you could pump forging once you found your first chunk of metal, for
example, or alchemy once you found your first empty bottle or blank
parchment.
In fact this is another of the great things about Sang. If you find an
awesome artifact launcher or weapon, there's nothing to stop you from
pumping the skill which enables you to use it effectively. I often
switch from martial arts to a weapon after a great find (e.g. if Wormy
drops a HA or and artifact). I once found a truly fantastic artifact
throwing axe, so I pumped throwing all the way from 0% to about 60% -
which took me all of about five minutes at that depth.
So you're not restricted to your initial choice of skills - and indeed
I suggest that in ironman it's sensible to choose a bare minimum at
first, and raise others depending on your finds.
Post by b***@inmail24.comPost by magnateI am inclined to stay away from casters for ironman, because the lack
of shopping means that your chances of finding books 6&7 are far less
likely.
I'll take that *any* day over trying to get through the early game
without a renewable escape method. But you mention fire risk below,
and I have no experience with that risk, so "I'm possibly
underestimating it" isn't even the right phrase.
Oh wow. I'm sorry to disappoint you, but the first three books burn
real nice. Packs of fire hounds, chimeras, fire vortices - very common
from about 1300' onwards, and even resist fire doesn't stop them
burning.
Still, I can't say I've tried many ironman casters, so maybe it isn't
that big a deal. You should have spares of at least the first two
books pretty quickly, so it's only the third that would be in real
danger.
Post by b***@inmail24.comPost by magnateDevices will give you what you need to replace the utility
spells.
Is there a rod of phase door? Of teleportation? When can one start to
hope for them?
Rod of Blinking shows up not long after 1000'; Staff of Teleportation
not much later. Staves very occasionally blow up on recharging, but
not often.
Post by b***@inmail24.comPost by magnateStill, I'm very interested to hear your tales of ironmen
casters.
I really should start documenting these games more. The trouble is,
when I'm playing an epic game, I hate stopping to write down what's
happening. :-)
I know that feeling exactly.
Post by b***@inmail24.comPost by magnateI think devices would be absolutely critical to success in ironman.
I agree.
In fact, I think the device skill (along with Spell Resistance) is too
important, period. But that's a subject for another thread.
Post by b***@inmail24.com(Discussion: how do I survive the opening without melee? Essentially,
patient play...)
Post by magnateIndeed, wands of spark are a boon. Missiles are also fine for the
first few levels, but it's frustrating how quickly they deteriorate
into non-viable killing skills,
I didn't say "skilled throwing," did I? That would be a waste of
skillpoints on a skill I won't be using in the long term. (Although
you don't seem to conider that a waste, so maybe I should reevaluate
that viewpoint.)
Yes - just as there's nothing wrong with paying over the odds to raise
a new skill later in the game, there's no problem at all about leaving
a skill at a certain point - in fact it helps your score to raise
fewer skills. I frequently play characters who invest in certain
skills purely to get a specific talent (detect magic, mend self,
detect evil, etc.) and then stop. I will often leave one melee skill
and switch to another after a particular find - ditto with missile
launchers. A little investment in throwing is always useful, since you
can chuck all sorts of nasty things you find at bad guys (potions of
essences/confusion/detonations, mushrooms of unhealth/disease etc.). I
don't know the optimal level, but a few points in throwing would help
early and not be wasted later. Like I said earlier, 21% is a key
breakpoint where there's a big cost jump, and I think there's another
one around 34%. Either of those would be good points to leave
throwing.
Post by b***@inmail24.comI use pointblank or near-pointblank range to make up
for lack of skill. There are some monsters where the pointblank bonus
still doesn't help, but it's plenty enough for taking out jellies,
molds, etc., as well as some of the mobile monsters. Don't bother with
it on snakes, though.
There are two interesting points in this paragraph. One is that in
most variants (I think including S), there is a big penalty associated
with using missiles at point-blank range - I think the bad guys get
bonuses to-hit, or your effective AC drops dramatically, or something.
This is why I'm so keen on a melee skill - and it seems to me that you
don't end up adjacent to bad guys any less often than I do, you just
use missiles or escape instead of slugging it out. (By "pointblank
bonus" I assume you mean "lack of range penalty", since there isn't an
actual bonus AFAIK.)
The other thing is very revealing indeed, which is that you kill
jellies and molds. I think this is associated with your level-clearing
habit from previous roguelikes with persistent levels. Most *banders
adopt a conscious decision *not* to kill every monster, since trying
to do so is a very common cause of death. I almost never kill jellies
or molds, because they're far more trouble than they're worth, and I
can almost always avoid them. Ditto quylthulgs, silent watchers,
haunted helmets, eyes, mimics and indeed almost all immobiles. Only if
they're preventing me reaching an item I want do I bother with them
(or if they're a sodding quest monster!).
I may have made an incorrect inference about your play style, but if I
not then this explains quite a lot about our different emphases on
various skills.
Post by b***@inmail24.comPost by magnate(Many missiles have lots of problems even outside of Ironman, and in Ironman they'll also be plagued by lack of ammo.)
I agree. When I mention necromancers using Become Bat plus ranged-
physical, I'm mentioning that as a secondary killing method for pillar-
danceable emergencies, not as a primary killing method.
That makes sense.
Post by b***@inmail24.comPost by magnatePost by b***@inmail24.comPost by magnatePost by b***@inmail24.comArmor especially seems superfluous. It is so tempting though!
I've always thought that forging would be vital in ironman, since you
don't have the home to expand your equipment permutations. I would
look at infusion too.
If I weren't so worried about skill dilution, I would too. :-)
Well, if you still like trying oath casters, add armor forging and
infusion - that takes you to nine skills, which is only one more than
you were trying before. Infusion is important because essences enable
you to direct your forging to cover resistance holes etc. Essences
quickly rack up into the hundreds, giving you plenty to spend on each
chunk of metal you find.
By the time I find, on average, my first chunk of copper, though, I've
either walked around for a while with a huge albatross on my neck in
the form of a uselessly-early investment in these skills, or I have to
pay a premium for the first levels of the skill when I give it a late
start. Maybe I'd be less nervous if I had a better feel for the skill
cost system. (But please don't quote too many algorithms at me --
algorithms aren't feelings.)
Keeping it simple, and following on from what I said above, the
additional cost of raising a skill later in the game is almost
negligible. XP and skill costs scale exponentially, so by the time
forging is costing you 50 per point instead of 2, you have thousands
of XP to spend so it really doesn't matter. There is a slight drawback
with skills that need practice (combat skills, casting, devices,
burglary) in that you can't raise them too quickly or the cost
skyrockets (it goes grey-yellow-orange-red on the skills screen), but
for forging/infusion etc. that problem doesn't arise. So you can find
your first chunk, drop twenty points into forging and see what
happens.
Post by b***@inmail24.com(Discussion: Dodging not worth it? Kind of, but, well, it *does* help
against, er, burglars...)
Post by magnateI guess so. Loss of books is another reason not to play ironman
casters. The chances of losing a book to fire or thievery before
finding a blanket of elemental protection and getting your Dex high
enough to avoid thieves must be nearing 100%!
Books stack, though, and unless you're mortally afraid of quasits, you
don't have to carry all your copies of books with you, either.
Books are heavy though, and leaving them on the ground is unsafe
unless you have both FF and Rnexus (which resists tele-level). But
don't worry, you have done much to rekindle my interest in casters!
Post by b***@inmail24.comStill, it's foreboding to hear such words of gloom from you,
considering I've never been to the deeper depths.
Well, the deeper depths are consistently challenging and fun, and IMO
Sang is the best-balanced variant I've played (which is a poor
recommendation because I have played so few). I'll be interested to
hear whether your lack of melee skills becomes less of a problem as
you go deeper (because your casting and devices are better) or more of
a problem (because phasing and landing next to things is more
dangerous).
Post by b***@inmail24.com(Discussion: Traps! Traps? Traps seem onerous.)
Post by magnateTraps really aren't too onerous. Two keypresses (+-dir) to set a trap,
and three more (+, inv selection, Esc) to fill it. Difficult to macro
I would have thought, because you don't know which direction or
inventory item you want, but I'm really no expert on macros.
inscriptions, and then there's the fact that there are nine directions
to consider... a set of nine macros might work, but it would be work
to set up (at least for the inventor), and would only cover one type
of action... well, I'll take a look.
Yes, it's the directions which are annoying. But macros can be
combined with user input, I think, so it might be possible to make a
single trap macro that took a direction, made a trap in that direction
and then filled it with whichever item was inscribed with @T (or
whatever).
Post by b***@inmail24.comPost by magnatea non-oath caster would focus on melee or traps or devices for
killing, and only need mana for utility spells.
My non-oath Necros have also needed mana for ranged killing (certain
jellies, fleeing enemies, etc.)... I think having at least some kind
of ranged option is essential, if not two or three.
This is why I think the device skill is too powerful: why would
anybody invest in throwing or a ranged weapon, when devices do the
same (ranged damage) plus so much else as well? Unless I'm playing a
ranger, I now don't bother with any ranged skill other than devices. I
consider not raising Devices to be a challenge char along the lines of
not raising Spell Resistance (indeed I have one of each going).
So yes, mana is of course useful for killing at range, but if you're
raising Devices (which you certainly are in ironman), it's not that
critical (making an oathless caster with 50% mana viable, which I
think was the genesis of this section).
Post by b***@inmail24.comPost by magnateIronically a necro is the caster I would most want to take the oath,
because their killing power goes up considerably.
Don't necros have abnormally high fail rates, though? That is the
intuition I'm getting with them. If so, that seems to argue in favor
of at least some melee.
Necros have high fail rates on certain spells which other realms learn
easily, like phasing and food, but I don't think their fail rates are
higher on average. I've not checked though - it would be an
interesting exercise.
Post by b***@inmail24.comOn the other hand, my oathless necros keep getting crushed like grapes
long before my best oathed meleeless sorcerors were (I have one parked
relatively deep right now, in fact, waiting for my mildly masochistic
non-oathed-sorceror experiments to end), and maybe the problem is in
the "oathless," not the "necro."
I doubt it. Are you comparing the same races? I suspect necros are
just harder to keep alive than sorcerors, for the first few levels.
Once Dark Bolt gets down to 0% fail and up to 3d8 damage I suspect the
tables turn partway - though the lack of phasing will leave sorcerors
with the edge for quite a long time. Then there's the fact that necro
ID is in the fourth flipping book ...
Post by b***@inmail24.com(mage-thieves discussion)
Post by magnatethe bonus to light weapons). Interesting conundrum - but I think I
would probably not combine casting and burglary - or if I did I would
take swords as well for 11 skills, and take the burglary oath, using
spells for utility and backup.
I get the feeling that you're assuming that a burglar has to take
most or all of the burglary suite. My parked mage-thief is going just
burglary-stealth-perception; isn't that also an option? And thus the
parked mage-thief is at magic1/magic2/magic3/device/percep/stealth/
burglary/resistance = only 8 skills (again, I'm really paranoid about
dilution!), with my perhaps having forgot one taking it to 9.
Well here we come across the issue that not all skills are equal.
Disarming, for instance, is the cheapest skill of all - it's already
only just over a quarter of the cost of devices, and once you've
invested in burglary it's almost free. So I see no point in my
burglars not taking Disarming. Dodging is 50% more expensive than
disarming, though still much cheaper than many skills, but here it
depends on race. My hobbits will always take dodging, whether burglars
or not; other races will take it if they're burglars because it's even
cheaper than normal, except Giants and Half-Trolls who should never
bother with it. Stealth is a must for all characters regardless of
burglary (except Dwarves, Half-Trolls and Giants as previously
discussed). So yes, burglars should almost always take the entire
suite for a combination of reasons, and it only really counts as two
full-price skills even though it's actually four. I note at this point
that I have never played a Dwarf or Half-Troll burglar. I submitted a
competition to play a giant burglar once, which was fun - he didn't
bother with stealth or dodging, but did raise disarming and perception
(which was at the time part of the burglary suite, though it isn't any
more).
So when considering how many skills to raise, you must consider the
cost (the base cost, excluding racial adjustments). Casting is 16,
devices 15, armour forging 14, infusion 13, weapon skills/mana/
burglary 12, martial arts/weapon forging 10, bows/xbows/throwing 9,
alchemy 8, slings/perception 7, realm skills/stealth/dodging/saving
throw 6, disarming 4.
So casting+mana+realm is 34. Burglary+stealth+disarming+dodging is
actually only 21 because stealth and dodging have an effective cost of
4, while disarming has an effective cost of 1! Armour forging and
infusion is a massive 27 (35 if you add alchemy), so it's a big
investment (and people still argue that armour forging, in particular,
is overpowered).
So your usual suite of casting, devices, perception, stealth, dodging,
saving throw is 74. Adding burglary and disarming takes you to only 83
- effectively adding less than one whole skill. But adding armour
forging and infusion adds over two an a half skills!
By comparison my current Samwise (competition hobbit) is raising
karate, devices, perception, the burglary suite and spell resistance,
which is a total of 59 - effectively only six skills. That explains
why his score is going so well (relative to my usual 10-12 skill
games!).
Post by b***@inmail24.comIn any case, you're making me less afraid to take the upper end of the
skill counts I think about taking, so you are having an effect here.
Nice to know.
Post by b***@inmail24.comPost by magnatePost by b***@inmail24.comI don't have faith in Druids.
I think this is because you see casters as needing to rely on spells
to kill. If you try a character who uses spells to supplement melee or
missile killing, druidic magic is great. Give one a try (not an
ironman, I suggest).
No, it's just the escapes thing. I'm plenty happy to play fighter-
casters, just have been preferring to play sorcerors meleeless --
their spell set is that good.
Well, you've definitely encouraged me to try this one day.
Post by b***@inmail24.comThink I might start trying meleeless necros, though (but with missile
skill for retreat-and-fire).
That might work.
Post by b***@inmail24.comPost by magnateNecros have such good offensive spells that they have the least need
for supplemental killing of all casters.
They have to actually get that far first, though. Remember, levels 2-9
or so in an Ironman game are *HAERD*!
Do you mean clev or dlev? I find that my clev (and therefore hp) rise
pretty quickly on my first trip down, regardless of what I'm playing -
but that might change if I try melee-less I guess.
Post by b***@inmail24.comIt's a long, long way from the
start of an ironman game until even the second necro attack skill, and
Sure, but isn't the first one viable until then, just as with a
sorceror?
Post by b***@inmail24.comthen there's that extra-special speed bump before the third and later
books... Still, I'll check it out (probably dropping melee rather than
missile though... in any case, magic + missile + melee was perhaps
stretching things a bit thin.)
Definitely. I don't really see the point of magic+missile if you're
investing in devices too. I would have though magic+devices+melee was
the way to go.
Post by b***@inmail24.comPost by magnateI would have thought that
melee would be more useful, for those times when you end up next to
something. You can always use devices to finish off beasties at range
and conserve mana.
Being able to pillar-dance and chuck/fire at monsters is like having a
huge, huge stack of devices for free. It's really, really good. I took
down Mughash and the non-dart-thrower part of his band once using
nothing but javelins. Granted, I was unusually lucky to have javelins
already by that point, but the fact remains.
I have experienced this too, but as I said before it gets frustrating
how the killing power of missiles/thrown actually goes down really
quite quickly after about 300-400'. This is the one area of Sang which
I think is poorly balanced compared with other variants. Still, no
harm in getting your missile/thrown skill up to 21% to make use of its
early benefits.
Post by b***@inmail24.comPost by magnateOne important point about Black Blessing is that it makes martial arts
viable in ironman, because you can take on incorporeals (which are
otherwise impossible for ironmen martial artists). My necros almost
always take karate - ditto priests (who have normal Blessing as a
spell).
I would think martial arts would be OK for *every* caster, since they
can just take out the offending beastie with magic. That said, martial
arts is an interesting topic. I was originally skeptical, since they
present a choice between either getting no resistances from the weapon
slot, or having to avoid the Oath to get the MA resistances. But now
that I have a feel for how quickly (slowly) I can expect a decent
weapon to turn up, I have to admit Josh was right -- the way MA
removes dependence on weapon drops is extremely powerful for Ironman.
Still feels like a hard decision, though.
I've never got a martial art high enough to get the resists, but I
don't see where it says they're not available to oath-casters. The
manual just says "Very skilled karate users who are not wielding a
weapon get special immunities: free action at a skill of 86, resist
sound and stunning at 92, and resist confusion at 98" - doesn't say
anything about oaths.
Anyway, I am currently totally dependent on martial arts for early
survival. I occasionally try a non-martial-artist - a swordsman or
dwarf spearman, but they survive far far less well in the early game.
This is the other problem with S's balance, IMO. Martial arts scales
quite quickly to become a useful killing skill (10% or so). With
weapons I don't see any improvement between 0% and about 25%, though
they are of course excellent later on. This early lack of improvement
means my weapon users die early because they miss too many times.
I have run several chars who have started off with a martial art (up
to 21%, or 40% for the first free stat point) and then switched to a
weapon skill after an early ego or artifact find - that works fine.
Of course, martial art vs. melee-less is a different decision from
martial art vs. weapon skill. If I'm trying melee-less that's fine,
but I have a very hard time using a weapon in the early game instead
of a martial art. Especially because of the free stat points later on,
and the hindrance effects.
Post by b***@inmail24.comIronically, my best weapon luck was with the best-performing of my
meleeless casters -- a 'thanc around D:5, for example. :-)
'thancs are *great* for throwing though!
Post by b***@inmail24.comPost by magnatenormal speed. You can either get outside their detection range (up to
300' - 30 squares - for some monsters)
This, in any case, is new information for me. That could be useful on
mostly-explored and relatively large levels, although you never know
what's been generated in the meantime...
Exactly. I very rarely find it helpful to run out of a monster's
range. If I can't beat them, I either take the stairs or teleport out
of range.
Post by b***@inmail24.comPost by magnateor, more likely, you can get to a set of stairs and escape.
Or you can pillar-dance, possibly chucking/firing as you go.
Only if you're faster than them (which really only applies to necros).
Post by b***@inmail24.comPost by magnatePrecisely. So running away isn't really an option - especially as you
are likely to wake up other monsters while you're fleeing. A staff of
teleportation is what you want instead - or a wand of tOther.
Cool to know these exist, although they apparently turn up deeper than
level 25, and I haven't gotten a non-sorc Ironman deeper than level 10
or so yet and the sorc only to 25, so it's still a rather exotic
consideration...
Staves of teleportation turn up pretty reliably around 1500' or soon
after. Wands of teleport away are very rare before 2000', which is a
pain - but then they are really really good!
Post by b***@inmail24.comPost by magnate(...) I use Break Curse immediately, to test all my unIDd kit.
I test it non-stop anyway... Remove Curse starts appearing rather
shallow, and cursed stuff rather deep. This does tend to leave my non-
necros stuck with a ring of teleportation for a while, but then, I'll
be wearing one for at least a little while anyway, for the ID XP.
? I tend to find at least one cursed item on my first trip into the
dungeon (levels 1-3). I have a very low tolerance for wearing cursed
stuff, which is why I like Break Curse so much.
Post by b***@inmail24.comPost by magnateBreak Curse stays useful for a long time, since you don't have access
to unlimited ID in ironman.
Priests get Scan Item, though, and Sorcs who finally reach book-3
depth *do* get unlimited ID. (What do Druids get in this department?
Besides goatform, I mean.)
Druids get ID in book 3 also, but right at the end (level 70 or so).
Very painful - pretty much as bad as necros, though the book is less
rare.
Post by b***@inmail24.comPost by magnateAll non-unique monsters have a random speed modifier of between -2 and
+2 to their normal speed.
Thanks! That must explains why green icky things keep getting free
hits in on my non-meleeless guys...
Yes. There is *always* the risk of a normal-speed monster getting a
double move on you, unless you are hasted.
Post by b***@inmail24.comPost by magnatePost by b***@inmail24.comThere is no "connected stairs" option in my copy of Sangband 1.0.0
final -- just a "no stairs back the way you came" option that is
without relevance in Ironman in any case. So, I don't understand you
here.
Sorry, my bad - I forgot that ironman doesn't allow you to go back up!
But yes, that's the option I meant - which is essential for non-
ironman speed-divers.
Oh, I get it -- you'd go down, look for stairs, and go up and back
down again if none were in view. That's a common tactic among "Void
divers" in ToME too (because almost no enemies in ToME's Void are
trivially survivable for most Void divers).
Well, not so much looking for stairs, as deciding that I can't kill
anything in sight, or reach any of the useful items in sight!
Post by b***@inmail24.com(Shopless ironman?! DO NOT WANT!)
Post by magnate(It's really just that) I didn't really
see much significance in a single visit to the shops before you go
down.
Even for my melee guys it makes all the difference -- especially if
there are some nice items available at a deep discount. If there are
not, then the money goes to scrolls of phase door, plus one CLW and
maybe CSW and ?Tele if there's money to spare.
Phase door is so important that I've begun experimenting with my non-
sorcs with not buying the second book.
Fair enough.
Post by b***@inmail24.comPost by magnateI guess it is important to pick up the second spellbook for
casters, and ammo for (doomed!) rangers, but that's about it. Maybe a
lantern, and a !CSW to ID.
Even when available, lantern purchases (unless they're like 75% off or
something) are an inefficient luxury. !CSW is a bit pricey, but...
yeah. Surprised Phase Door wasn't the first thing to cross your mind,
though!
Well it's certainly good, but with the initial few hundred gp you can
buy a dozen at most, which doesn't last you long in ironman. As I said
above, if I can survive until my martial art reaches 21 I can pretty
much cope with anything I'm likely to meet - not that I never need
escapes, but I don't need huge numbers of them. Admittedly ?phase does
help survival until that point - but I'm not sure I'd find shopless
ironman all that much harder than shopping ironman ...
What do you think is the size limit for a Usenet post??
CC