Shadow Cloaks suck

[Antoine]

They should give ResLite and a Stealth bonus, or similar...

My 2c,
A.

[camlost]

That's a big trouble with balancing the (non-body) armor. If you give
them any specials (resists, pvals, special abilities), they jump in
value significantly. Giving them 3 extra armor (for instance) isn't
that great.

Now, if armor (like O,S,Z weapons) granted percentile bonuses instead of
fixed bonuses, a cloak with 4x the starting armor could be pretty good.
Of course, that'd require a fair bit of tweaking.

Joshua

Post by Antoine
They should give ResLite and a Stealth bonus, or similar...
My 2c,
A.

[ceilti]

Post by Antoine
They should give ResLite and a Stealth bonus, or similar...
My 2c,
A.

I think they should be quite a bit rarer, more expensive, and give not only
rlite, but rdark as well as stealth.
I assume you are discussing Vanilla Angband, but there are variants where Shadow
Cloaks have other attributes.

on another topic, I'm no longer completely certain, but I seem to remember when
Cloaks of Aman gave im_acid!

[Timo Pietilä]

Post by ceilti
on another topic, I'm no longer completely certain, but I seem to remember when
Cloaks of Aman gave im_acid!

Not in vanilla. In NPP they give random immunity instead of random high
resist. Maybe you are remembering that.

Timo Pietilä

[Andy Gullans]

Well, this much is certain: Shadow Cloaks should give a decent bonus to
Stealth.

[Timo Pietilä]

Post by Andy Gullans
Well, this much is certain: Shadow Cloaks should give a decent bonus to
Stealth.

There should be also elven cloaks. Non-magical, but gives stealth-bonus.
Shadow cloaks should then be extremely lightweight high-stealth cloak.
Maybe somehow "force good" or maybe even ego, if possible.

Timo Pietilä

[Nick McConnell]

Post by Timo Pietilä

Post by Andy Gullans
Well, this much is certain: Shadow Cloaks should give a decent bonus to
Stealth.

There should be also elven cloaks. Non-magical, but gives stealth-bonus.
Shadow cloaks should then be extremely lightweight high-stealth cloak.
Maybe somehow "force good" or maybe even ego, if possible.

This is almost exactly what elven and ethereal cloaks are in Oangband:

N:231:& Elven Cloak~
G:(:G
I:35:2:2
W:35:0:5:350
A:35/4
P:2:0d0:0:0:0
F:STEALTH
D:A mantle made of curious silken material by the Galadrim that wondrously
D:takes on the hues and shapes of its surroundings.

N:233:& Shadow Cloak~
G:(:D
I:35:4:0
W:50:0:5:1200
A:50/2
P:4:0d0:0:0:4
D:A midnight-hued cloak that wreathes the wearer in folds of shadow.

N:235:& Ethereal Cloak~
G:(:W
I:35:6:0
W:50:0:0:2500
A:70/4
P:0:0d0:0:0:10
F:IGNORE_ACID | IGNORE_ELEC | IGNORE_FIRE | IGNORE_COLD
D:This unearthly, completely transparent body mantle folds and drapes in
D:iridescent patterns around you. It weighs absolutely nothing.

The problem with the shadow cloak here is that, for it's depth and rarity, an
extra 3 armor class is meaningless. I like the force good idea.

Nick.

[Andy Gullans]

Uh, what's "force good"? Is that something that causes the game to
throw out and reroll crappy bonuses during item creation?

[Timo Pietilä]

Post by Andy Gullans
Uh, what's "force good"? Is that something that causes the game to
throw out and reroll crappy bonuses during item creation?

It doesn't exist. But it could. There is INSTA_ART -flag that forces
created item to be artifact, so that could work in similar way.

Timo Pietilä

[Joseph William Dixon]

Post by Andy Gullans
Uh, what's "force good"? Is that something that causes the game to
throw out and reroll crappy bonuses during item creation?

=20
It doesn't exist. But it could. There is INSTA_ART -flag that forces=20
created item to be artifact, so that could work in similar way.

Probably thinking of the DROP_GOOD & DROP_GREAT monster flags - the forme=
r
ensures that objects in the monster's drop are weapons/armor that have
plusses and aren't cursed, plus maybe certain other item types that'd be
defined in the source, as an absolute minimum (they then go through the
normal checks to see if the item'll become an ego-item or artifact.
DROP_GREAT ensures that only ego-items (plus certain other items - DSMs,
Rings of Speed and dungeon spellbooks being the most common) get generated
(which then continues on to check to see if it becomes an artifact)...

Essentially, they just cause the object generation code to skip forward a
little bit...

There are also equivalent symbols for vaults to cause minimum good/great
status for the stuff generated there...

--=20
"Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They
never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our
people, and neither do we." - George W. Bush [August 5th, 2004]

[Timo Pietilä]

Post by Joseph William Dixon

Post by Timo Pietilä

Post by Andy Gullans
Uh, what's "force good"? Is that something that causes the game to
throw out and reroll crappy bonuses during item creation?

It doesn't exist. But it could. There is INSTA_ART -flag that forces
created item to be artifact, so that could work in similar way.

Probably thinking of the DROP_GOOD & DROP_GREAT monster flags

No, there is INSTA_ART -flag for "special artifacts" in object.txt.
There could be FORCE_GOOD and FORCE_EGO too that could work in similar way.

IIRC special artifact creation goes like this:

First game tries to generate special artifact base item type and checks
depth (rarity is zero). Then it tries to turn it into artifact and
checks depth second time and then rarity. If it fails base item does not
get generated.

Timo Pietilä

[Hugo Kornelis]

Post by Timo Pietilä

Post by Joseph William Dixon

Post by Timo Pietilä

Post by Andy Gullans
Uh, what's "force good"? Is that something that causes the game to
throw out and reroll crappy bonuses during item creation?

It doesn't exist. But it could. There is INSTA_ART -flag that forces
created item to be artifact, so that could work in similar way.

Probably thinking of the DROP_GOOD & DROP_GREAT monster flags

No, there is INSTA_ART -flag for "special artifacts" in object.txt.
There could be FORCE_GOOD and FORCE_EGO too that could work in similar way.
First game tries to generate special artifact base item type and checks
depth (rarity is zero). Then it tries to turn it into artifact and
checks depth second time and then rarity. If it fails base item does not
get generated.
Timo Pietilä

Hi Timo,

Not quite.

On item generation, there is a 0.1% chance (or 10% for "good" and
"great" items) that one of the special artifacts is attempted (see
below). If this chance is not made, or if it is made but the attempt
fails, a normal item will be generated, which can then be promoted to
ego or artifact status.

The attempt to generate a special artifact goes like this:

(Start cut and paste from obj-good.spo)

The special artifacts comprise the artifact light sources, rings, and
amulets. When the game attempts to create a special artifact, it runs
through a list of all the special artifacts that have not yet been
created. Each item in the list undergoes a rarity check and a minimum
depth check, similar to that of the normal artifacts. However, for
the special artifacts the minimum depth check is made twice. If these
checks succeed then that special artifact is created; otherwise the
game goes on to the next artifact in the list. When the list is
exhausted, no special artifact is created.

Example:
Let's suppose that the Phial of Galadriel (the first special artifact
in the list) has already been created. You are on dungeon level 6
and have just defeated Wormtongue (normally found on dungeon level 8),
who will drop 1 or 2 guaranteed great objects. What is the chance of
getting the second special artifact in the list, the Star of Elendil
(rarity 25, miminum creation level 30)?

The first object created is guaranteed great, so there's a 1 in 10
chance that the game will attempt to create a special artifact. If
this succeeds, the Star of Elendil will be the first special artifact
attempted. The rarity check will be 1 in 25. The minimum depth check
calls for 1 in twice the difference in dungeon levels (2x(30-6)=48);
this 1 in 48 chance will have to be made twice. The Star of Elendil
will only be created if *all* checks are made; the chance of getting
this artifact is therefor equal to 1 in 10x25x48x48, or 1 in 576,000
(about 0.00017%).

Since Wormtongue has a drop of 1 or 2 objects, there is a 50% chance
that the game will decide to make a second object. This second object
will then have the same chance to become the Star of Elendil. This
boosts the total chance of getting Elendil to a whopping 0.00026%.

(End cut and paste from obj-good.spo)

Best, Hugo

[Twisted]

Problem being, the depth of the drop is 7, not 6, in that example
(average of Wormtongue's depth of 8 and the dungeon level of 6). Of
course, 10x25x46x46x3/2 isn't much better odds. :) (Roughly 1 in 3,500)

[Hugo Kornelis]

Post by Twisted
Problem being, the depth of the drop is 7, not 6, in that example
(average of Wormtongue's depth of 8 and the dungeon level of 6). Of
course, 10x25x46x46x3/2 isn't much better odds. :) (Roughly 1 in 3,500)

Hi Twisted,

You're wrong - but so was I.

After seeing your post, I decided to double-check the spoiler. And I
found that I must have made a mistake when I wrote this part (forgive
me, please - I was yound and didn't know any better).

I'll have to check with some more care later, and I'll update the
spoiler when I'm really 100% sure, but I think that the correct
procedure is:

1. Check artifact level against dungeon level (6 in the example); make
an "artifact out of depth" check of 1 in (2 * level difference).
2. Check artifact's rarity.
3. Check object level of artifact's "base item" against object
generation level (7 in the example - the average of dungeon level and
Wormtongue's level); make a "base item out of depth" check of 1 in (5 *
level difference).

Currently, all special artifacts a dedicated base item that is used only
for that single artifact, and all object levels of these objects are
equal to the corresponding artifact level. But that might change, since
artifact level is in artifact.txt and object level in object.txt.

Best, Hugo

[Timo Pietilä]

Post by Hugo Kornelis

Post by Timo Pietilä
First game tries to generate special artifact base item type and checks
depth (rarity is zero). Then it tries to turn it into artifact and
checks depth second time and then rarity. If it fails base item does not
get generated.

Not quite.
amulets. When the game attempts to create a special artifact, it runs
through a list of all the special artifacts that have not yet been
created. Each item in the list undergoes a rarity check and a minimum
depth check, similar to that of the normal artifacts. However, for
the special artifacts the minimum depth check is made twice. If these
checks succeed then that special artifact is created; otherwise the
game goes on to the next artifact in the list. When the list is
exhausted, no special artifact is created.

OK, so it does check rarity first and then depth. Not other way around.
Also I forgot about that it goes thru all "special" artifacts before
failing (There was an error there in old times, all special artifacts
did get created in order, so if you didn't have Vilya, then it was
impossble to get The One)

Timo Pietilä

[Martin Bazley]

On the fourth moon of the second planet of a dying star, Timo Pietilä
was seen to write...

Post by Timo Pietilä

Post by Andy Gullans
Well, this much is certain: Shadow Cloaks should give a decent bonus to
Stealth.

There should be also elven cloaks. Non-magical, but gives stealth-bonus.
Shadow cloaks should then be extremely lightweight high-stealth cloak.
Maybe somehow "force good" or maybe even ego, if possible.
Timo Pietilä

I once saw a variant where they had ResLight/Dark. Not sure how
relevant that is.

Definitely the stealth - maybe even invisibility for variants that
have it.

Could a 'shadow cloak' be a cloak that is made of something not quite
physical? Im_All, perhaps?

I think they should still be shallower. Particularly with Im_All -
that would be a big incentive for a low-level character to wear it (a
cloak that doesn't suffer in front of green worm masses!)

[Timo Pietilä]

Post by Martin Bazley
Could a 'shadow cloak' be a cloak that is made of something not quite
physical? Im_All, perhaps?

Ignore_all, obviously. IMM_ALL is only in The One.

Timo Pietilä

[Martin Bazley]

On the fourth moon of the second planet of a dying star, Timo Pietilä
was seen to write...

Post by Timo Pietilä

Post by Martin Bazley
Could a 'shadow cloak' be a cloak that is made of something not quite
physical? Im_All, perhaps?

Ignore_all, obviously. IMM_ALL is only in The One.
Timo Pietilä

Oops. You're right, of course. Sorry.