Discussion:
[RISC OS]Missing upgrades
(too old to reply)
Harriet Bazley
2004-12-03 23:51:55 UTC
Permalink
Currently the RISC OS ports are on

Angband 3.0.4
Ey 0.5.2
Gum 2.2.1
NPP 0.3.1
O 0.6.1
Psi 1.3.0
Sang 0.9.5b(!)
sCth 1.0.12
Steam 0.3.1a
ToME 2.2.6
Un 0.5.4a
Z 2.7.3

and Kamband, Cthangband, Kangband and CaTHband have been
abandoned.

It's been a LONG time since the last port.
I already know about Angband 3.0.5 (e.g. see latest
competition) and the changes to Sangband, but how many other
variants have been updated to which versions?
--
Harriet Bazley == Loyaulte me lie ==

Own nothing you do not know to be useful or believe to be beautiful.
BarlowBrad
2004-12-04 07:21:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Harriet Bazley
Currently the RISC OS ports are on
NPP 0.3.1
NPP's "current" stable version is 0.3.4, but Jeff Greene expects to
release the stable version of 0.4.0 this weekend. It includes many new
and great upgrades. :)
Velvet Elvis
2004-12-05 06:32:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Harriet Bazley
Currently the RISC OS ports are on
Angband 3.0.4
Ey 0.5.2
Gum 2.2.1
NPP 0.3.1
O 0.6.1
Psi 1.3.0
Sang 0.9.5b(!)
sCth 1.0.12
Steam 0.3.1a
ToME 2.2.6
Un 0.5.4a
Z 2.7.3
I feel for you. I've not been able to get any updates for my Timex
Sinclair in ages.
Martin Dann
2004-12-06 02:39:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Velvet Elvis
I feel for you. I've not been able to get any updates for my Timex
Sinclair in ages.
But you can for a PC that uses a processor based upon a '70s design to run
a washing machine.

RISC OS is still being developed and new hardware designed. The chip
which was designed to run RISC OS probably outsells any other
processor world wide.

Martin.
--
Typed by monkey #27662472869676 on typewriter #7552416572242
When emailing me, please include the word Banana in the subject line.
Alexander Ulyanov
2004-12-06 10:04:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martin Dann
Post by Velvet Elvis
I feel for you. I've not been able to get any updates for my Timex
Sinclair in ages.
ZX-Spectrum clones and software were extremely popular in Russia until about
1998 :).
Post by Martin Dann
RISC OS is still being developed and new hardware designed. The chip
which was designed to run RISC OS probably outsells any other
processor world wide.
Well, that's great, but can you tell us WTF is that chip, and what's so
great about this chip and RISC OS?
--
Alexander Ulyanov, maintainer of PosBand roguelike
E-mail: uav AT urmail DOT ru Web: http://orthanc.chat.ru/pos/
"Think of a number, any number. -- Er, five. -- Wrong!"
-- Marvin the Paranoid Android, "Life, The Universe, And Everything"
tristan
2004-12-06 17:49:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alexander Ulyanov
Post by Martin Dann
RISC OS is still being developed and new hardware designed. The chip
which was designed to run RISC OS probably outsells any other
processor world wide.
Well, that's great, but can you tell us WTF is that chip, and what's so
great about this chip and RISC OS?
ARM. Originally Acorn Risc Machines now Advanced Risc Machines having
been spun off from Acorn quite a while before they went bust...
The processors are great, but they long since disappeared from the
desktop arena and are now only really used in embedded environments
where low power consumption is necessary.
Technically RISC OS is an old fashioned OS design, but it has the best
GUI (or WIMP as they were originally known) I've ever come across and is
rock solid.
The BBC Archemides (the first computer to feature the ARM processor and
RISC OS) was very popular in the UK and for a while even worried Apple
as the computer was the fasted desktop computer around and very easy to
use, but due to a series of bad management decisions and the problem of
being British and not American and then Microsoft's rise to dominance
all but killed it off...

That said, my father uses them for all his work and internet use, and
there is still some fantastic and currently developed software
available. Oh and the graphics on Who Wants To Be A Millionaire at least
originally ran on one of these :)

RISC OS fans also tend to be as fanatic about their computers as Linux,
Windows, Mac, *BSD etc users... possibly moreso given the image of
plucky underdog and the existence of a community around the computers...

RISC OS is still being developed for desktop and embedded use and was
recently used in set top boxes by Pace and the computers are being
developed by several companies. No chance of becoming a main stream
player again though, unless there is a huge change towards heterogeneous
computing environments where the OS etc does not matter any more.

HTH
Tristan (ex RISC OS user...)
Alexander Ulyanov
2004-12-07 10:49:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by tristan
Post by Alexander Ulyanov
Post by Martin Dann
RISC OS is still being developed and new hardware designed. The chip
which was designed to run RISC OS probably outsells any other
processor world wide.
Well, that's great, but can you tell us WTF is that chip, and what's so
great about this chip and RISC OS?
ARM. Originally Acorn Risc Machines now Advanced Risc Machines having
been spun off from Acorn quite a while before they went bust...
The processors are great, but they long since disappeared from the
desktop arena and are now only really used in embedded environments
where low power consumption is necessary.
I think I've heard about ARMs. Linux runs on them.
Post by tristan
Technically RISC OS is an old fashioned OS design, but it has the best
GUI (or WIMP as they were originally known) I've ever come across and is
rock solid.
Well, Linux is rock solid as well, and there are RISC OS themes for most of
window managers :).
Post by tristan
RISC OS fans also tend to be as fanatic about their computers as Linux,
Windows, Mac, *BSD etc users... possibly moreso given the image of
plucky underdog and the existence of a community around the computers...
Nearly everyone except Windows users are fanatic about their OS :).
Post by tristan
RISC OS is still being developed for desktop and embedded use and was
recently used in set top boxes by Pace and the computers are being
developed by several companies. No chance of becoming a main stream
player again though, unless there is a huge change towards heterogeneous
computing environments where the OS etc does not matter any more.
Thanks for the information. Are there any estimates of the number of RISC OS
users? I guess that it was another mainly European design, like Sinclairs.
--
Alexander Ulyanov, maintainer of PosBand roguelike
E-mail: uav AT urmail DOT ru Web: http://orthanc.chat.ru/pos/
"Think of a number, any number. -- Er, five. -- Wrong!"
-- Marvin the Paranoid Android, "Life, The Universe, And Everything"
Antony Sidwell
2004-12-07 13:56:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alexander Ulyanov
Thanks for the information. Are there any estimates of the number of
RISC OS users? I guess that it was another mainly European design,
like Sinclairs.
There are estimates, but they're more like guesses I think. It is now
firmly a minority desktop OS, with a few thousand users at best. It is
indeed a European (some would say British) design, with reasonably good
details available on the wikipedia at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RISC_OS
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acorn_Computers_Ltd
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARM_architecture
--
Antony Sidwell.
tristan
2004-12-05 12:25:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Harriet Bazley
Currently the RISC OS ports are on
Angband 3.0.4
Ey 0.5.2
Gum 2.2.1
NPP 0.3.1
O 0.6.1
Psi 1.3.0
Sang 0.9.5b(!)
sCth 1.0.12
Steam 0.3.1a
ToME 2.2.6
Un 0.5.4a
Z 2.7.3
and Kamband, Cthangband, Kangband and CaTHband have been
abandoned.
It's been a LONG time since the last port.
I already know about Angband 3.0.5 (e.g. see latest
competition) and the changes to Sangband, but how many other
variants have been updated to which versions?
Does anyone know the current mechanisms for porting to RISC OS.
I did it years ago but things have changed (ISTR Musus Umbra was the
main RISC OS guy...)
I have access to RISC OS machines (RiscPC and Iyonix) so may be able to
do some compilations.

Tristan
Harriet Bazley
2004-12-06 02:01:02 UTC
Permalink
On 5 Dec 2004 as I do recall,
Post by tristan
Does anyone know the current mechanisms for porting to RISC OS.
I did it years ago but things have changed (ISTR Musus Umbra was the
main RISC OS guy...)
I have access to RISC OS machines (RiscPC and Iyonix) so may be able to
do some compilations.
I don't know, there's a !Variant file involved I think to
turn the skeleton application into a given variant. (I wish
the variant number were in a separate file or even the !Boot
file, you seem to have to run the app to read it from the
window.)

My e-mail archive doesn't go back that far but I think it was
Antony Sidwell who was doing the last ports after Musus Umbra
(or else the other Sidwell). It was definitely after the
Iyonix went on sale because he did some 32-bit safe ports,
and that's nearly two years now isn't it?
--
Harriet Bazley == Loyaulte me lie ==

Micro Credo: Never trust a computer bigger than you can lift.
Steve Clark
2004-12-07 00:47:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Harriet Bazley
On 5 Dec 2004 as I do recall,
Post by tristan
Does anyone know the current mechanisms for porting to RISC OS.
I did it years ago but things have changed (ISTR Musus Umbra was the
main RISC OS guy...)
I have access to RISC OS machines (RiscPC and Iyonix) so may be able to
do some compilations.
I don't know, there's a !Variant file involved I think to
turn the skeleton application into a given variant. (I wish
the variant number were in a separate file or even the !Boot
file, you seem to have to run the app to read it from the
window.)
My e-mail archive doesn't go back that far but I think it was
Antony Sidwell who was doing the last ports after Musus Umbra
(or else the other Sidwell). It was definitely after the
Iyonix went on sale because he did some 32-bit safe ports,
and that's nearly two years now isn't it?
I think Anthony Sidwell put an updated version of Musus' *ngband front end
on clockwork - I don't know if it was carried over to the new site.

</looks>

yes, it's there at ftp://193.201.200.227/pub/angband/Acorn/

hmm... there is also a version of frog knows. Tempting - I might go and
get a few characters killed on that.
--
Steve Clark

{***@argonet.co.uk using a 43Mb SA 4.39 RiscPC}
Harriet Bazley
2004-12-07 03:59:30 UTC
Permalink
On 7 Dec 2004 as I do recall,
Post by Steve Clark
yes, it's there at ftp://193.201.200.227/pub/angband/Acorn/
hmm... there is also a version of frog knows. Tempting - I might go and
get a few characters killed on that.
That was me! It's fun.
--
Harriet Bazley == Loyaulte me lie ==

Flying is the art of throwing yourself at the ground... and missing.
Antony Sidwell
2004-12-07 12:42:30 UTC
Permalink
[snip]
Post by tristan
Post by Harriet Bazley
It's been a LONG time since the last port.
Sorry! See below for excuses. :)

[snip]
Post by tristan
Does anyone know the current mechanisms for porting to RISC OS.
I did it years ago but things have changed (ISTR Musus Umbra was the
main RISC OS guy...)
Well, I know, because I've done pretty much all the recent(ish) ones. :)
It's a pretty straightforward process except where major
structural changes have taken place[1]. It goes like this :

1. Have a working C compiler setup, either new Norcroft, GCC, or old
Norcroft with StubsG. You also need DeskLib version 2.50 or above.

2. Take the source zip or tarball. If it is a tar.gz you try to
remember the correct way to invoke the commands on RISC OS, or else
dearchive it on your Linux machine and copy it across.

3. Take the angband-kit archive which I keep forgetting to zip up
and put on my ports page, and use the various tools to put the source
files into the correct directory structure and fiddle with
line-endings where it matters.

4. If you're lucky, I've done a port of the given variant since I last
changed the frontend code (which is a while ago now), and have sent
a working Makefile and main-ros.c to the maintainer of that variant,
so all you have to do is check that there are no new files to add to
the Makefile. You can then proceed to step 7.

5. If you're unlucky, main-ros.c needs updating to the latest version
(which should be in the angband-kit archive). The problem
here is that there are several different forms of various functions
and macros across the different variants, and we (well, mostly Musus)
have tried to maintain a single frontend file with #defines to pick
which version of the interfaces to use. There is a whole raft of
#defines to choose from at the top of the main-ros.c file, depending
on whether a variant supports bigscreen (not Sang bigscreen, the
normal sort), whether functions like my_strcpy are defined elsewhere
in the source, how the memory allocation functions work, etc.

I tend to deal with this by keeping a copy of the main-ros.c or
main-acn.c which came in the source archive, and referring to that
for settings which should work, filling in the others by hopping
around in the source.

6. Next is getting a working makefile together. I supply a template
Makefile in the angband-kit, which works for the Lua-enabled variants
(Angband, Zangband and ToME I think). That makefile is for GNU make
and supports both Norcroft and GCC compilers. You'll need to edit
the list of object files to match those actually needed by the
variant you're compiling, and may also want to remove or comment out
the Lua sections, depending.

7. Run "make -f Makefile.ros" in the correct directory, with a 15000k
wimpslot or thereabouts. You *will* get warnings with almost every
variant. Angband may have a relatively clean codebase but it is not
perfect, and Norcroft in particular picks up on possible problems
other compilers ignore. The trick is working out which of these
should be fixed and which shouldn't. I tend to try and fix as many
as possible, or at least to point all of the fixable ones out to the
maintainers. This is for two reasons: I hate ignoring
sensible warnings on code as they are there for a reason and I worry
that if the code is allowed to degenerate away from perfect
portability it will eventually be too much trouble to compile on
RISC OS or any other minority OS. Thanks to the maintainers of the
various variants for putting up with my correspondence over these
relatively trivial matters.

8. All being well, you now have a shiny new executable. If compilation
has not completed, you'll have to go back and tweak things again
(particularly in main-ros.c - I normally compile that file a dozen
times before I get all the settings right :)

9. Now you have to package it into an application so you can run it.
This is where I always screw up - missing out files, including huge
files which are no use on RISC OS, all sorts of things. :)

You should be able to take the bare Fooband skeleton from the
angband-kit and copy in the executable and the lib directory from
the source archive. Then you edit the !Variant file to have the
right name (the same name you set in the main-ros file), filetype and
wimpslot.

You should now be able to run the game. I tend to spend a little
time running around and being killed by various things in an attempt
to detect bugs. I'm not sure I've ever found one that way though.

10. There are instructions in the kit for making a manifest file and
then packaging up the program to distribute. I normally write a
few lines in one of the many readmes to outline any changes or
isues, and give a contact email, then I upload it to my webspace and
update my ports page. I don't know what other people would want
to do with theirs, but I'd be happy to update my page to point to
the latest version of any given variant, and space allowing I could
even host the archives (there's always drobe's webspace to fall back
on if I run out of space with NTL). Then there's a post on here to
tell people about it. I've been known to tell Acorn Arcade, drobe
and comp.sys.acorn.games about them as well.

It sounds horrendous if you've never ported anything before, but it
actually isn't that bad compared to most. The things which trip you up
are (almost) always in the same place, and you learn the right places to
look to solve problems fairly quickly.

If you do email known working versions of main-ros.c and Makefile.ros to
the maintainers, it makes it much easier next time. My problem with
that tends to be that I wait for any bugs to shake out before sending
them, and by the time I could be fairly sure they were bug free I just
forget all about it.
Post by tristan
I have access to RISC OS machines (RiscPC and Iyonix) so may be able
to do some compilations.
Well, I'd be grateful. If I don't have spare time I tend to let the
compiliations slide and then spend a couple of days a year just
compiling up the latest versions. Combine that with doing less RISC OS
stuff generally in the last year or so, and my best monitor recently
dying, all help will be gratefully received.

I *will* upload a new version of the angband-kit to my ports website at
http://ajps.mine.nu/angband/ports in the next few days, and am always
willing to talk to people by email or IRC [2] about any issues that come
up, or just to coordinate efforts so that two people don't waste time
compiling the same variant.


[1] ToME3, for instance, is probably best attempted as a fresh port
using the various Unix-compatible tools and libraries we have around
now, thanks to the GCC porting team and the UPP.

[2] I'm ajps on IRCNet (uk.ircnet.org), and am always in #playpen. I'm
also on WorldIRC (irc.worldirc.org) from time to time, though your
best bet there is to /msg me.
--
Antony Sidwell.
Antony Sidwell
2004-12-13 17:13:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Antony Sidwell
I *will* upload a new version of the angband-kit to my ports website
at http://ajps.mine.nu/angband/ports in the next few days,
And what do you know? I actually have. It's not perfect but I think
I've updated the documentation where necessary. If nothing else it
gives anyone else who fancies it a chance to maintain a port.

You can follow the link from the above mentioned page, or get it direct
from http://homepage.ntlworld.com/isparp1/angband/angband-kit.zip
--
Antony Sidwell.
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